Well, maybe Seraphon will be one of the first Battletomes in 3.0 and they just put this version of Kroaks Warscroll out because they new one would have interactions with rules or units that aren't here yet.
Well, for my two cents worth I like everything but the wounds rule. As everyone has repeated, it's dumb and random and yet another "feels bad" mechanic for both sides. He's either invincible or he dies after taking less than half of his actual wound in damage, and of course he can randomly die after just taking 2 damage. Why even give him 18 wounds in the first place if there's a 50% chance that he just dies after taking 8-10? I mean, this is just BS. I'm fine with everything else, but this one thing is complete garbage.
So some people have been asking about why he has 18 wounds when he does automatically at 17. The reason being is that after taking 18 damage he is automatically removed, rather than having to wait for the roll at the end of the phase. While this seems minor it does effect combat in that he can't strike back. And you can pile in where he was. Minor but still a thing.
Counterstatement. We(buyers and readers) literally fund them. They can do to listen here and there no? It's really hard to say we're ungrateful when they are being lazy and if they think they can hide behind pretty, sleek, cool as fuck, flat out wonderful pieces of plastic and resin, then they are absolutely correct
I mean... then they should maybe communicate that? It'd help with keeping the hype going if they actually give a good reason why his warscroll recieved such a lame update when he got such a cool model..
maybe and i mean just maybe our new Battletome will be revealed today, then there would have been no misscommunication from GW, cause his Warscroll comes out today for real. The chances of this are astronomically low, but i don't want to curse at GW for a leak... let's give them a couple hours and then swear how terrible they are for ruining Lord Kroak
It would really be a slap in the face to a lot of other factions to give Seraphon a new tome right now
Why would we get a new Battletome? Was there any Battletome announced for AoS 3.0? Stop with the wishful thinking, ffs.
I actually don't hate the new wounds rule. Yes it's random, yes there are going to be times that it might feel bad for both players, and watch out airplane aisle sitters because there's a big but coming. BUT, it creates interesting choices. If I'm Kroak's opponent, how do I deal with him? Do I try to do chip damage to him in every phase possible hoping to get lucky with a high roll at the end? Do I instead devote more attention to him to try and take him out in one blow? Do I not bother and instead just try to mitigate the other ways that he can threaten me (take out vassals, Astrolith, etc)? All three are valid options thanks to the rule, and all three have significant implications as to how I position and commit my forces. On the other hand if I'm fielding Kroak, the fact that he now is vulnerable to death by chip damage from shooting or magic makes him less of an "Automatically hide in the corner and wreck people with boardwide casts" option. So I have more incentive to make more interesting/different/varied depending on the circumstances plays. And that's not to mention how it influences list building, do I take guard to effectively ensure invulnerability or is that too much of a points investment? Do I bring an Oracle to more easily hide from chip shooting without losing effectiveness? Even the two criticisms I acknowledged have some counterpoints: 1) Randomness - 3d6 is much less random than 1d6, and there are plenty of rules in AoS that are just as swingy if not more so which hinge on a single dice roll. 2) Players feeling bad - Hopefully players have some sense of the risks/possibilities introduced by this rule and so when something crazy happens like a 3 wound phase killing Kroak or a 16 wound phase being shrugged, it's not an entirely unexpected event. It certainly isn't much different than activating a unit that has an expected wounds output that should delete whatever it's fighting but then rolling poorly and having your opponent overperform when fighting back turning what seemed like a sure victory into a loss. I'll admit, I haven't yet played dozens of games like many folks on this forum, but my experience in game design tells me that more interesting choices usually mean a better gaming experience. Anyway, thanks for reading my unsolicited opinions. I'm pumped for the model regardless of the rules
It's fair to say that we're inflating the worst case scenarios with Kroak in our head, it's just that we all know that someday we're gonna take 3 wounds and roll a 17...and that'll be soul crush. However, it's also probably fair to say that Kroak is the best and most useable warscroll we've seen from BR: Kragnos... And on average? Most of the time? He will be *excellent*
Couple of issues with this. 1) the choice for the opponent is fairly meaningless because chip damage is unlikely to succeed, especially if it's a little bit of chip damage per phase. If you have 1 spell (or one ranged attack, etc.) using it on Kroak is probably futile. The choice only starts to become meaningfull once you can do 6-7 damage minimum per phase. And at that point you're commiting a decent chunk to hitting him, especially if Kroak is properly protected and positioned as he has no incentive to actually take a risk. 2) The incentive for Kroak to actually do something interesting because he's sturdy enough to be sure he can survive when he takes a risk is also rather meaninglessm because of one very simple and stupid reason; He sucks at everything that isn't magic. Even if he's sure to survive he can't run off on his own and contest an objective or slam into an unguarded flank of your opponent to cause some mayhem because he has no offensive power outside of his spells. So why would he ever bother moving from his comfy spot in the backline? Which makes it all just kind of pointless. I agree that the basic idea behind the rule isn't inherently bad. But this might be the worst possible way to implement it. Honestly all they need to do to fix this is the following: 1) Up the minimum to say 25+, but the roll is done at the end of a turn. This way Kroak doesn't randomly fall over to say a lucky arcane bolt & your opponent also doesn't have entire phases that are basicly meaningless with respect to killing Kroak because those 1-2 damage per phase will add up. Which removes a lot of the frustration on both ends. 2) Give him a meaningfull melee profile, or even short ranged range profile, that works without needing to face hordes of enemies so he's encouraged to actually use his survivability for daring plays instead of sitting in the backline casting spells, preferably through his skink vassals. Even if all he does is grab the occasional objective or duel a lone minor hero it'd be infinitly more interesting than what we have now. He's not "bad" from a competitive point of view. It's just an increadible waste of an update.
@King Dust I guess you would see almost no complaints if a model like a Skink Starseer had such a rule. On a model with Kroaks point cost? Just no.
Does anyone know when the pre-order goes live? I clicked on the link in the article on the gw page for kroak and I got an error 404 page...
Maaaaybe. Now that I've cooled down a bit, I tend to think a big gorgeous model update is never truly a waste, everything changes every few years anyway. Even Kragnos, as crappy as he is now due to point cost, will probably be great someday. We will eventually get a 3.0 tome. Probably in 18-24 months, and I think it will come with a line refresh. Kroak will be updated again at that point, who is to say how?
I mean yeah, the probability you take him out with chip damage is very low, but the expected value in terms of points removed per wounds of offensive potential spent is not much different from what you'd get for taking out a few Saurus warriors with those wounds instead. So the question just becomes, are you feeling lucky? Which I maintain is an interesting decision. This is a fair point, he's generally going to be worse at all of those things than other parts of your army, sometimes this added flexibility could be handy in a pinch, but for the most part you're right. These are good suggestions, but they don't magically fix all of the problems without introducing new ones. Which is why rule-crafting is such an art, there are always trade-offs. I don't think I see your point. Is it that since Kroak is such an expensive inclusion in your army he shouldn't be so vulnerable? On average I think he's actually much sturdier than most models in his points range since he'll absorb 16-20 wounds a game even if your enemy targets him efficiently. Or am I misunderstanding?