In this thread I would like to discuss the current state of the Seraphon 3.0 meta. As of the begining of September there have been two 5-0 finishes and seven 4-1 finishes. This currently places Seraphon in the top of the meta below DoT and SoD and about even with other threats like SoB. The following are all the lists I could find. Spoiler: 5-0 Pompey Pillage TL . Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Thunder Lizard- Mortal Realm: Ghur- Grand Strategy: Beast Master- Triumphs: InspiredLeaders Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215) - General- War Spear- Command Trait: Prime Warbeast- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration Slann Starmaster (265) - Artefact: Itxi Grubs- Spell: Stellar Tempest Engine of the Gods (265) Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150) Skink Priest (80) - Universal Prayer Scripture: HealBattleline 5 x Saurus Knights (110) - Lances 5 x Saurus Knights (110) - Lances Stegadon (265) - Weapon: Skystreak BowBehemoths Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235) Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235) Endless Spells & Invocations Emerald Lifeswarm (60) Additional Enhancements ArtefactTotal: 1990 / 2000Reinforced Units: 0 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 91Drops: 10 Spoiler: 5-0 Justice Series GT TL . Allegiance: Seraphon Constellation: Thunder Lizard Grand Strategy: Beast Master Triumphs: Leaders Slann Starmaster (265)* General- Command Trait: Arcane Might Spell: Celestial Apotheosis Skink Priest (80)* Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal Engine of the Gods (265)* Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration Battleline Stegadon (265)* Weapon: Skystreak Bow Stegadon (265)* Weapon: Skystreak Bow Stegadon (265)* Weapon: Skystreak Bow Units 2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240)* Reinforced x 1 1 x Salamander Hunting Pack (120)* Behemoths Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235)* Core Battalions*Battle Regiment Total: 2000 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 1 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 81 Drops: 1 Spoiler: 4-1 Circle City Clash TL Allegiance: Seraphon -Constellation: Thunder Lizard -Mortal Realm: Ghur -Grand Strategy: Hold the Line -Triumphs: Inspired Leaders Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215) in Warlord -General -War Spear -Command Trait: Prime Warbeast -Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration Engine of the Gods (265) in Linebreaker -Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices Skink Starseer (145) in Warlord -Spell: Hand of Glory Skink Priest (80) in Warlord -Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal Battleline 10 x Skinks (75) in Vanguard -Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers Stegadon (265) in Hunters of the Heartlands -Weapon: Skystreak Bow Stegadon (265) in Hunters of the Heartlands -Weapon: Skystreak Bow Stegadon (265) in Hunters of the Heartlands -Weapon: Sunfire Throwers Behemoths Bastiladon with Ark of Sotek (185) in Linebreaker Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235) in Linebreaker Core Battalions Hunters of the Heartlands Warlord Linebreaker Additional Enhancements Artefact Total: 1995 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 0 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 93 Drops: 10 Spoiler: 4-1 Mancunia Carnage DT Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Dracothion's Tail - Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery - Triumphs: Indomitable Leaders Slann Starmaster (265) in Battle Regiment - General - Command Trait: Ancient Knowledge - Artefact: Godbeast Pendant - Spell: Stellar Tempest Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150) in Battle Regiment Skink Starseer (145) in Battle Regiment - Spell: Tide of Serpents Battleline 5 x Saurus Guard (115) in Battle Regiment 5 x Saurus Guard (115) in Battle Regiment 10 x Skinks (75) in Battle Regiment - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers Units 2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) in Battle Regiment - Reinforced x 1 2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) in Battle Regiment - Reinforced x 1 2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) in Battle Regiment - Reinforced x 1 2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) in Battle Regiment - Reinforced x 1 1 x Salamander Hunting Pack (120) in Battle Regiment Endless Spells & Invocations Chronomantic Cogs (45) Core Battalions Battle Regiment Battle Regiment Total: 1990 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 4 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 102 Spoiler: 4-1 Mancunia Carnage TL Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Thunder Lizard - Mortal Realm: Ghur - Grand Strategy: Beast Master - Triumphs: Inspired LEADERS Loq-Ta (305) in Linebreaker Stegadon with Skink Chief - General - Command Trait: Prime Warbeast - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny - Weapon: Skystreak Bow Lord Zep'zex (265) in Warlord Slann Starmaster - Spell: Stellar Tempest Nax'tar (130) in Warlord Skink Starpriest - Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration - Spell: Hand of Glory Chazakh (80) in Warlord Skink Priest - Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal UNITS 30 x Skinks (225) in Hunters of the Heartlands - Boltspitters & Moonstone Clubs 10 x Skinks (75) in Warlord - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (75) in Warlord - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240) in Hunters of the Heartlands 1 x Salamander Hunting Pack (120) in Hunters of the Heartlands BEHEMOTHS Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235) in Linebreaker Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235) in Linebreaker CORE BATTALIONS Warlord Hunters of the Heartlands Linebreaker ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS Artefact Spoiler: 4-1 Mancunia Carnage TL Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Thunder Lizard - Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence - Triumphs: LEADERS Engine of the Gods (W1) (265) in Warlord Engine of the Gods - General - Command Trait: Nimble - Artefact: Cloak of Feathers Slann Starmaster (W1) (265) in Warlord Slann Starmaster - Artefact: Itxi Grubs - Spell: Stellar Tempest Skink Starseer (W1) (145) in Warlord Skink Starseer - Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices - Spell: Hand of Glory Skink Starpriest (W2) (130) in Warlord Skink Starpriest - Spell: Hand of Glory Skink Starpriest (W2) (130) in Warlord Skink Starpriest - Spell: Hand of Glory Skink Priest (W2) (80) in Warlord Skink Priest - Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse UNITS Chameleon Skinks (W1) (115) in Warlord 5 x Chameleon Skinks Chameleon Skinks (W2) (115) in Warlord 5 x Chameleon Skinks Razordon Hunting Pack (H1) (95) in Hunters of the Heartlands 1 x Razordon Hunting Pack Skinks (H1) (75) in Hunters of the Heartlands 10 x Skinks - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers Saurus Warriors (H2) (210) in Hunters of the Heartlands 20 x Saurus Warriors - Spears Saurus Warriors (H2) (315) in Hunters of the Heartlands 30 x Saurus Warriors - Spears ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS Emerald Lifeswarm (60) ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS Artefact Artefact 4-1 BWG Summer Slaughter FoS No list found 4-1 BWG Summer Slaughter TL No list found Spoiler: 4-1 Florida Open TL Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Thunder Lizard - Mortal Realm: Ghur - Grand Strategy: Beast Master - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty LEADERS Stegadon with Skink Chief (305)* - General - Command Trait: Prime Warbeast - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny - Weapon: Skystreak Bow Slann Starmaster (265)* - Spell: Stellar Tempest Skink Starseer (145)** - Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration - Spell: Hand of Glory Skink Priest (80)** - Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150)** UNITS 5 x Saurus Guard (115)* 20 x Skinks (150)* - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (75)* - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240)* BEHEMOTHS Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235)* Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235) CORE BATTALIONS *Battle Regiment **Command Entourage - Magnificent ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS Artefact TOTAL: 1995/2000 Some of the notable stand outs of the early seraphon meta: Thunder Lizards is by far our most competitive constellation with only one FoS and one DT placing. This makes a lot of sense as 3.0, especially in the realm of Ghur, is shaping to be all about heros and monster and most importantly monster heroes. The Engine of the Gods is our most popular hero monster. They provide a lot of utility and survivability. They are a good scoring unit for battle tactics and holding objective. They also have enough attacks to be a threat in combat if needed. Slanns are our most popular casters. Slanns make freak support casters and help against opposing wizards. Kroak is nowhere to be seen and the basic Slann has taken his place. Kroak is very powerful but he is a very large investment. In the current meta his magic isn't enough to take on Archaon who is dominating. The Slann is great against all non-magic heavy armies while being cheap enough that he isn't a waste of points against armies with better wizards than our Slann. Of the skink heros Priests are number one for their amazing ability, command ability that lasts through all phases and new ability to heal. We are not taking big blocks of skinks anymore so star priests have lost a lot of popularity. Starseers are becoming more common to help our monsters do more damage. All our battle line is used pretty evenly except regular saurus who only show up in one list but as a big block of 30 Bastiladons are gaining popularity. They are very tanky and can sit on objectives while shooting across the board. Counting as 5 models really helps these monsters where in 2.0 it was too easy to have a small unit walk on the objective and take it from the bastiladon. One list even has an arc of sotek, which for it's points makes a nice objective sitter. Bastiladon also benefit from the Ghur command ability to let the fight as if at full health, bringing them back to a 1+ save to shrug off damage better than all out defense. Most of our book is seeing play which is very nice and the lists are over all pretty varied compared to most cookie cutter lists at the top of the meta.
Nice write up! I'd be curious to see how the finishes compare to the play rates of our subfactions tho. It could be that more people are playing TL because it's fun to play our big dinos for once and actually be competitive. For a long time it's been all about starborne, so people might just be bored of that. There might only be 1 FoS and DT finish because there aren't nearly as many Seraphon players running those lists, not necessarily because they aren't as strong as TL
Thunder Lizards is both fun and competitive, which really is a great place to be! But at tournaments people will be playing competitive over fun so I do believe TL is our most competitive build. Some things that make TL powerful in 3.0 compared to 2.0 are: Monsters and monster heros got a buff. Monsters counting as 5 models and the smaller unit size of 3.0 means our monsters can actually score. More over, our monsters can score additional points in Ghur. Skinks lost a lot of power. They went up in points while being capped at 30 in 3.0 rather than 40 in 2.0 that is a 25% reduction in the mortals they would pump out. So skink spam is just not as over powered. It's still good and a few lists have blocks of 30 skinks. Also now that Alphas can use generic command abilities the low bravery of TL isn't as crippling. Smaller board size means teleporting is less powerful. It's still super strong but not as necessary. Also people are using Slanns over Kroak which means less spells and astroliths. We have less summoning points. Finally in this meta DoT and StD are the big bad guys and this makes Bastiladons better, as they do extra damage against chaos. And what's better than firing once with your solar beam? Firing twice! I do think Bastiladons may be that sleeper unit, we know they are okay but they may be more powerful than what we actually consider.
I think that TL like sons of behemat is top tier due to the Ghur rules. Being able to kill units at range with a monster is a very big deal in the current season. Once the season is over and monsters arent important again, i expect to see tl fall by the wayside. But thats a long way away.
The Realm of Ghur rules do benefit monsters a lot allowing them to score additional points but 3.0 in general is good for monsters. Monstrous actions and counting as 5 models plus smaller units in general due to reenforcement rules, do a lot for monsters in general. I think we will be seeing a lot of monsters all throughout 3.0.
IMO DT is still the strongest seraphon build at the moment. Thunder Lizard struggles heavily against Lumineth which is kind of unfortunate. DT has the ability to bring in monsters for extra bonus points while not being so reliant on them you're bleeding 5 victory points over the course of the game. Being able to keep half your army off the table is just insanely strong when its all salamander shooting . Really helps mitigate potential alphas or ensures you get your alpha where it needs to go. With that said, I think seraphon has a ton of diversity right now. I agree skink based lists have gotten weaker, which i'm okay with! Playing 40 skinks was not fun looool.
While I agree DT is strong the data shows that TL is preforming better. TL, DT and FoS are all viable in my opinion, which is a good place to be. There was a DT salamander spam list that got 4-1, it looks like a nightmare to go against.
Yep, TL definitely has the results right now. Think it probably has a slight edge in numbers too, don't think as many players are running DT atm. I got a 4-1 at nashcon but only other 4-1 I've seen was the one in your post. Either way it's real close and prolly more dependent on matchup than anything, which is pretty awesome for us.lots of variation too in just the way the lists are put together.
Can you post you 4-1 nashcon list so I can put it in the first post. Also I can't find any nashcon lists. If there were any other 4-1 seraphon finishes and you have the list please post and I can add it for a more in depth analysis.
Nashcon was a two list event that didn't use Bcp or TTO so the lists weren't out there very much. The list I used in all my wins was the list without the saurus knights and with the basti. The other player ran a fangs and thunder lizard list, think he said he only used the thunder lizard list in 1 game but could be wrong.
Here, i can actually post the BWG summer slaughter lists as well. Steven Cole: Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Fangs of Sotek - Grand Strategy: - Triumphs: Leaders Lord Kroak (430)* - General Skink Priest (80)* Skink Starpriest (130)* - Artefact: Cloak of Feathers - Spell: Celestial Harmony Skink Starpriest (130)* - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny - Spell: Hand of Glory Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150)** - Artefact: Serpent God Dagger Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)** - Allies Battleline 30 x Skinks (225)* - Boltspitters & Moonstone Clubs - Reinforced x 2 30 x Skinks (225)* - Boltspitters & Moonstone Clubs - Reinforced x 2 10 x Skinks (75)* - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers Behemoths Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235) Core Battalions *Warlord **Command Entourage - Magnificent Total: 2000 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 4 / 4 Allies: 315 / 400 Wounds: 128 Drops: 10 Matthew Hunsicker: Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Thunder Lizard - Grand Strategy: - Triumphs: Leaders Lord Kroak (430)* Stegadon with Skink Chief (305) - General - Command Trait: Prime Warbeast - Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration - Weapon: Skystreak Bow Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215)** - War Spear - Artefact: Blade of Realities Skink Priest (80)** - Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse Skink Starseer (145)** - Spell: Hand of Glory Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150)* Battleline 30 x Skinks (225)* - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers - Reinforced x 2 10 x Skinks (75)* - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 5 x Saurus Guard (115)* Behemoths Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235)* Core Battalions *Battle Regiment **Command Entourage - Magnificent Total: 1975 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 2 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 115 Drops: 5
1 Bastiladon seems to be pretty much auto include in every list this season. Its also interesting to see how most lists have abandoned endless spells completely in favor of spending pts elsewhere.
Basti's are super clutch. Even in starborne the ability to have a tough monster with a strong ranged shooting attack is just a huge benefit when it comes to scoring those additional battle tactic points. Also, i find myself getting it stuck in with stuff that has low rend/no mortal attacks and it just holds them up forever. Against the right units its a fantastic anvil, something seraphon desperately needs in certain situations. In terms of endless spells, IMO i'm not a huge fan. i think they all are pretty low impact, slow, and often times not worth their points considering we have good alternatives to cast. I could see it in a coalesced list that uses Kroak, just because if you're not in deliverance range and you aren't dumping a spell for summoning, 4 casts is a lot to get value out of. Even then, i only rate a couple endless spells as worth it at all.
Any consideration for the Ark basti outside of TL when we can't double tap the solarbeam? Still has the same anvil potential and saves 50 points. In TL the potential to double tap is certainly worth the extra points.
Surprising to see regular Stegadons pop up in these lists. At 265 they seem quite pricey for what they bring to the table. Is it just the extra shooting that makes them worthwhile? Otherwise I would have thought the points are better used on more bodies.
It completely depends on your list. Ark bastiladons are not a monster you make room for in your list, they are something you add if you have the points left over but can't fit something else. If you already have your core army down and you notice you lack a survivable unit for objective camping but can't fit a solar engine, then the ark works.
To be honest our battle line is a tax. This is why you are seeing small units that aren't being reenforced and with no units to buff them. Right now 10 skinks or 5 knights just isn't actually going to do much. So by taking a stegadon as battle line you are not really paying 265 points, you are dipping into that tax you would be paying to cover it's cost. Not sure if that makes sense. But stegadons are nice, they shoot well, go into combat well, and score extra points for being monsters.
Imo, no. The solar engine is worth the 50 points every time, double tapping or not. It gives you reach turn one to ping heroes or battleline and is a pretty critical part of why I'd consider the basti a great choice. I have seen the Ark work well in TL lists when you're just trying to squeeze another monster in but in a starborne list where you probably are just bringing one, should be solar engine every time.
Only two but more or less yes. One of the battleplans was the one where battleline hold better and you can burn all the objectives. Since it was a two list event I wanted a list better into that battleplan.