8th Ed. WARRIORS OF CHAOS ~ Army List Construction and Feedback

Inspired by our previous discussion, I finished up my Troll-Star list. 2,998 points





A Slaanesh - Khorne team up!! (yes, I know they are bitter enemies).

A pretty simple list, revolving around 6 potent units (DP, Troll-Star, Chimera X2, Skullcrushers X2) and 4 chaff units (Warhounds). The BSB goes into the 4-man Skullcrusher unit (the one with the full command), essentially making two units of 5 Skullcrushers. The list is fast, with the slowest unit being the movement 6 Trolls... and it includes 3 potent flying units.

Every unit in the army, outside of the Skullcrushers), have two leadership bubbles at their disposal (one from the DP and a second from Throgg).

With such a massive Troll unit, things like Purple Sun and flaming attacks are always an issue. It will be up to the other 5 main units in the army to take out those threats. Aside from that, there aren't many units in the game that want to dance with the Troll-Star.

The trolls, Throgg and the DP are great at taking out heavily armoured units. The Trolls, DP and Skullcrushers can typically handle units on their own, while the Chimera can work in tandem with each other or the DP.

Cannons are a top priority for elimination/delay in order to keep the DP and Chimera safe. The list contains several elements to accomplish that:

• its uber fast and will be in close combat quickly and has quick elements to engage enemy warmachines
• the troll unit is the perfect cannonball catcher
• DP will likely have two spells that can force enemy warmachines to move (and thereby preventing them from shooting)
• 4 chaos warhound units

The Lore of Slaanesh is good for all sorts of movement shenanigans, either to delay or catch enemies. Hysterical Frenzy is obscenely good on Skullcrushers as both the riders and the Juggers get an extra attack (8 attacks per model!!). Phantasmagoria + Allure of Slaanesh is great at making the DP impossible to hit in CC. Cacophonic choir, being a hex, can be used to damage enemies in close combat. Two spells in the lore hex the enemy with ASL, which can eliminate Elven re-rolls or force enemy units to strike after the trolls and Juggers do!

So, what do you guys think? Where will the list excel and where might it falter? Is it a list you would feel confident against or not? Suggested improvements?

I have a near similar list, where the trolls are split into two units of 9 and the Skullcrushers are combined into one JuggerStar (8 in total + the BSB). That list also has three breath weapons in it, while the one above only has the single breath weapon on the DP.

 

It looks like a fun list to play. It seems a quite tactical movement army.
You have the Troll's low leadership covered I guess, but what about Stupidity? or do Chaos Trolls not suffer from it?

Grrr, Imrahil

 

This is so for much of the fantasy table top games

Good case, list tailoring might be needed in some cases.

Grrr, !mrahil

 

I don't have the heart to unleash it upon @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER . She plays rather aggressively (doesn't shy away from CC) with her Wood Elves, and I fear they would be steamrolled by this army.

They do suffer from stupidity. The two leadership bubbles and BSB in the list are there to minimize failed stupidity tests. Aside from that, there isn't much that can be done. That's the cost of fielding trolls.

 

The bane of Chaos! Outside of the expensive Hellcannon, there isn't very much available at our disposal. The best my list can do is try to engage the opposing army as quickly as possible.

That tactic would greatly reduce the Troll's leadership from a 9 with reroll (DP's inspiring presence + BSB) to a straight 8 (due to Throgg). That is a pretty big difference, dropping the chance of passing a steadfast break test from 97.2% to 72.2%. That is of course assuming that the trolls would be able to claim steadfast, which is far from guaranteed.

The big issue though is whether or not the trolls actually lose the combat to begin with. The whole idea is moot if the chariots can't best them in CC. The trolls, especially a horde of them, are a very dangerous unit. I think that in order to have a chance, the TK player would need the following:

• a large enough unit of chariots - you'll need the numbers to take on the Trollstar, both in terms of unit frontage (so more impact hits) and ranks (for greater strength impact hits). The problem with this is that the unit quickly becomes quite expensive and unwieldy. Especially with your Tomb King general in there. If they fall, it is a very big loss.
• banner of eternal flame - if the trolls have their regen, I think they still crush the chariots, even if charged. I haven't run the numbers, but I think you really need to bypass the regen to stand a chance. Admittedly, the banner would come in handy against the Chimeras as well. However, it would make the DP and the BSB nearly fully immune to the unit, as they would each be sporting a 1+ armour save AND a 2+ ward save. That's risky, especially since the DP flies.
• you need the CHARGE - without impact hits, I don't like the chariots' chances. While their charge range is superior to that of the trolls, overall the TK army is much slower. I think this list in particular would enjoy a massive superiority over the TK in terms of the movement phase. The DP can easily outmaneuver and out-charge the chariots. The lore of Slaanesh has not one, but two spells that neuter movement and cripple charges (random movement D6). If either Skullcrusher unit charges the chariots, it will likely spell the end for the chariots. The same is true if the DP charges, especially since it can hold them there (indefinitely) until they are flanked charged. The four units of hounds can also be problematic redirectors... either to delay or to setup a countercharge. Lots can go wrong.

That said, if the above could be satisfied, I wonder how it would turn out. What sized unit did you have in mind?

 

Agreed, that would be huge. Funnily enough, even if Throgg wasn't in their unit they could still use his leadership if he was within 18".

The Lore of Tzeentch spell "Treason of Tzeentch" would be far more dangerous, as it would force them to use leadership 4. Of course, the trolls would still have to lose the combat, but a unit like the Beasts of Nurgle should get the job done.

That is a major issue! Killing blow is essentially absolutely useless against this army list. I think that is one of the big weaknesses of the Tomb Kings, they seem reliant on killing blow to beat armour. As a result, things like Skullcrushers are a huge problem for them.

3X3 formation?

What other gear do you give the Tomb King?

It's always going to be an uphill climb because it is TK versus WoC. There is a huge discrepancy in terms of power level, and beyond just strict power level, WoC are simply a bad matchup for the Tomb Kings. An army like the Dark Elves (which is comparable to the WoC in terms of power level) would be a much better matchup for the Nehekharan boys.

That pretty much sums up the TK taking one the WoC: A lot of things need to go right and only one thing needs to go wrong.

I honestly don't know how I would construct a TK army list to take on my WoC army list posted above. Aside from trying to 6 dice a Purple Sun through the TrollStar or 6 dice a Casket at the DP, I don't really have a counterstrategy.


Your idea is interesting, pitting a core choice + character against a core choice + character. You might be able to use some champion & resurrection shenanigans to lock Throgg out of the main fight (though he will still generate overkill points). It would be interesting to see if the odds favoured the TK unit if they managed to get the charge off. Even in the best case scenario though, they will likely be extremely damaged in the process. It's an intriguing matchup as the units should be fairly close in cost when we factor in the two characters.

 

Indeed... it's a suicide run to be sure. There is no way he will evade the many elements of my WoC army list for long and each of them can kill him easily. And therein lies the problem. Even if he can get the spell off (which is never guaranteed, and some portion of the Trollstar will endure anyways) , what happens to the Tomb King army after he falls?

 

So what about other armies? Which armies might fare well against the list? And which armies will struggle?

 

He could definitely be problematic. Perhaps a character more hated than Hortennse!

Good point on the Hexwraiths. They pose a huge problem to the Chimera and even the Trolls to some degree since their attacks have the Flaming Attacks special rule. The Troll unit is also entirely devoid of magical attacks (including Throgg).

As you mentioned, their Spectral Hunters ability would prove to be a good countermeasure against the Skullcrushers, but on the flip side, if the Skullcrushers ever get a charge off on them, the Hexwraiths would be instantly vaporized (since they would strike after Skullcrusher riders and Juggers... and all those attacks are magical). The DP would be a great counter (magical attacks and he has a 2+ ward against flaming), but he can only be in so many places.

Those things are a pain in the backside for any army they are facing. Charging that thing with any of my major units would be a top priority. At least they should all enjoy an advantage over the big beast in CC. That Death Shriek is scary though. I would definitely try to keep my DP a good distance from it.

The Chimeras could still use the general's (and Thogg's) leadership against the Death Shriek, right?

 

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl I know you hate the Warriors of Chaos and this probably isn't your type of list, but how much do you hate it? At least it doesn't have any Chaos Warriors in it!!!

 

I wouldn't want to play this with the models I have as I've always mainly gone with building armies that look great and aren't tailor-built, but if I were to be allowed to invest in as many models as I'd need, then it depends on what army I'm using:

• If I'm using my trusty Dwarfs, I should be able to create some sort of list to have a chance against it, with Irondrakes, a Flame Cannon, a Cannon or two with Flaming Attacks, a Cannon or two without Flaming Attacks to take down the Daemon Prince, and something to try and hold up the Skullcrushers.
• High Elves, again, given I'd have access to the Lore of Fire, Dragons and Phoenixes, I might be able to pull something off.
• Orcs and Goblins might be able to damage the Skullcrushers with Fanatics and Mangler Squigs, but I'd need to roll well enough to achieve that, and they don't have much in the way of access to Flaming Attacks. I could counter the Troll-Star with a River Troll-Star of my own, but it would need an Orc General beside it at all times and wouldn't be as reliable as the Throgg-Star, and that still leaves the Chimeras to deal with. Spear Chukkas are a possibility to deal with them and the Daemon Princes, as discussed before, but they need to hit successfully to have any chance of wounding, won't always get past the Chimeras' Regeneration and the Daemon Prince's armour and misfire on a 1, meaning their reliability leaves much to be desired. I'd honestly be most worried about facing this army if I was playing Greenskins, because they are too reliant upon chance (even in a game where you want the Dice Gods to be in your favour as often as possible), and don't have enough combat or ranged clout to be able to face down all these nigh-unkillable threats.
• Beastmen would be able to have a go at the Troll horde if I brought Taurox (who could be considered a match for Throgg), a Gorebull BSB with the Banner of Eternal Flame and as big a Minobus as I can afford, but that still leaves the Daemon Prince (which would need another Minobus to counter him and there's only so many points I can spend on Special choices), the Chimeras and the Skullcrushers to deal with. I could use a Jabberslythe to damage the Chimeras every turn with Aura of Madness due to their low Leadership, but I'd have to be careful of keeping it out of the way of them and the Daemon Prince or else it will be game over for it, and of course it would be much less effective if the Daemon Prince kept the Chimeras within his Inspiring Presence range. The much-maligned Lore of the Wild gives me a couple of tools that could be used to deal with the Skullcrushers in the form of Traitor-Kin and Bray-Scream, or I could try using Shadow to buff a big unit of Gors with Okkam's Mindrazor to help wound the Jugger-riding Chaos Warriors and reduce their armour to a more manageable level. The Totem of Rust on a large unit of Bestigors would also be a potential way to defeat them or the Daemon Prince, as they would be able to reduce either of these units' normally mighty Armour Save to a measly 6+, but I'd have to have enough Bestigors in the unit to be able to weather the initial storm of attacks and I'm already spending a lot of my Special points on at least one Minobus.
• Lizardmen would have to bring some Salamanders to toast the Trolls, and a Slann with Lore of Fire could add to the barrage or focus on the Chimeras, but again the Daemon Prince and Skullcrushers still pose a big threat. 3000 points would give me a 750 point Lords Allowance, so perhaps I could squeeze in a second Slann with the Lore of Metal, if I avoid taking many Disciplines of the Old Ones? I'm not sure if that's even allowed, but it would be an interesting option if it was.
• Skaven would need some Warpfire Thrower teams (even if they have an abysmally short range, at least if they hit, they'll hit the Trolls quite hard, as well as being cheap as chips) and Poisoned Wind Mortars and Globadiers can deal with the Skullcrushers at range, or else I can use the Curse of the Horned Rat to turn them into extra Clanrats, if I bring a Grey Seer (with or without a Bell) along. A Warp Lightning Cannon or two wouldn't go amiss either, Strength 6 Jezzails might be an additional option for popping the Daemon Prince, and if I could get a Hell Pit Abomination into combat with a Chimera (which will not always be easy given Random Movement goes against it) that could potentially tie it up for the game.

 

Good stuff @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

Don't worry, I don't have all the models in my list either!

Indeed! A definite threat. My Chaos doggos would be running straight towards those units to try and draw them out.

Don't they ignore armour?

How big are these Minobuses?

Why wouldn't it be allowed? I do think it is risky taking Double Slann like that. The Disciplines are what make them good in the first place. Plus, where to do you bunker that massive investment? As single unit or do you invest in a pair?

What about a Focus of Mystery Slann who can trade spells into the Lore of Fire and the Lore of Metal? A bit slower, but less costly.

 

Points aside, in a one versus one matchup, Taurox edges out Throgg

However, looking at this build, a few problems come to mind...

• it is a prohibitively expensive unit. A large number of Minotaurs (with GWs I assume?) + Taurox + BSB carries a very hefty price tag. Minotaurs cost nearly twice what Chaos Trolls cost. Even with just 10 Minotaurs + characters in the unit (leaving them greatly outnumbered against the trolls) the unit already weighs in at over 1,100 points.
• the BSB is essentially sacrificed. Taking a magic banner means that he can't have other magic items. That leaves him nearly defenseless. Also, if the Trolls should hold after the first round, and they take out the BSB, in round 2 their regeneration is back and it is game over.
• Skullcrushers would do an ungodly amount of damage against the Minotaurs

 

3000 points army.

Here is a different take on a Warriors of Chaos list. This is more of a fun/strange build, and no where near as competitive as the earlier list I had posted. That said, if someone was not prepared for it, it could pose some very serious challenges. It is definitely weak in terms of magic, having only a single level 2. The list is also very character heavy, which comes with the usual drawback that they are competing for magic items/gifts, and therefore, slightly sub-optimal.

What do the list does have though is flight... and lots of it. We're talking 7 units/characters with the fly special ability. This gives the list an undisputed advantage it terms of mobility. While an army like the Skaven have a banner that could ground the army, most armies will have no choice but to concede the movement advantage. The WoC player will dictate the matchups. The Chimeras can work in tandem with the Daemon Princes, forming attack groups of 1 DP + 2 Chimera. Alternatively, if the opponent has war machines, they can split off and make very short work of them.

Exactly 25% of the list made up of Lord selections, so I can't legally add anything to them in a standard game. If instead, the 50% Lords/Heroes End Times rules are used, then I'd drop the breath weapon off the Chimeras and Poisonous Slime off the BSB (saving me 75 points in total), which I'd then use to bump the level 2 DP up to a level 4.






Thoughts and comments?

 

Where is good old @Lizards of Renown when you need him?


Surely @Killer Angel and @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl might be persuaded to share some of their insights. (maybe even @Imrahil if coaxed enough).


Eager to post my next army list... one featuring a newly acquired model!