8th Ed. How would you rank the Warhammer armies in terms of technological prowess? (tier list included!)

[Killer Angel]

What does everyone else think of the Wood Elves being bumped to D-tier?

i tend to agree

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

So, is everyone in agreement that the Chaos Dwarfs sit at the very top of the list (above their vanilla counterparts)? Any dissenters ( @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl )?

I believe that the Chaos Dwarfs hold an undeniable and sizeable technological edge over the regular Dwarfs. No point in writing a long and drawn out post if that statement is shared unanimously among us.

@Killer Angel @Imrahil @Scalenex

 

[Killer Angel]

I believe that the Chaos Dwarfs hold an undeniable and sizeable technological edge over the regular Dwarfs. No point in writing a long and drawn out post if that statement is shared unanimously among us.

So, you would put them in a sort of S+?
i'm not sure i agree... CD are basically the chaos counterpart of vanilla Dawi. they are supposed to be at the same tech level, only CD have daemons-infused machines and magic.


Also, if i remember correctly there was an agreement to lower the VC at the same level of TK...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

So, you would put them in a sort of S+?

Still S tier. The tiers are simply groups, but within each of those groups there are still differences and room from gradations. For instance, I have both Beastmen and Orcs&Goblins in F-Tier, but I would easily rate the O&G as having the technological edge between the two.

i'm not sure i agree... CD are basically the chaos counterpart of vanilla Dawi. they are supposed to be at the same tech level, only CD have daemons-infused machines and magic.

I'll do a breakdown later.

Also, if i remember correctly there was an agreement to lower the VC at the same level of TK...

Yup... they are moving down. I'll make an updated list at the end.

After the argument you guys presented, I even posited the idea that the VC could be moved even further down to E-tier...

As such, down they go to join the Lizards and the TK. An argument could be made to place them even lower. Thoughts?

 

[Killer Angel]

After the argument you guys presented, I even posited the idea that the VC could be moved even further down to E-tier...

they are indeed similar to WE... they probably have the knowledge, they just don't bother to use it.
so yes, E wouldn't be that wrong.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

i'm not sure i agree... CD are basically the chaos counterpart of vanilla Dawi. they are supposed to be at the same tech level, only CD have daemons-infused machines

Points against the Chaos Dwarfs being the most technologically advanced:

• The vanilla Dwarfs have achieved technological (non-living mount) air superiority. Vanilla Dwarfs have Gyrocopters, Gyrobombers and Airships/Blimps. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), no other Warhammer race has unlocked technological flight (Doom Divers don't count, that's falling with "sort of" style). That is a big ace up the technological sleeve of the vanilla Dwarfs, and it must be acknowledged.
• At their very peak of inventiveness (Morskittar Engine and Doomsphere specifically), it can be argued that the Skaven surpass the Chaos Dwarfs in terms of their technological destructive ability (albeit at a massive cost to reliability and quality). While this only occurs in extremely isolated and exceedingly rare cases, it too must be acknowledged (even though it has not relevant in our Dwarf vs Chaos Dwarf discussion)

Points where the Chaos Dwarfs and Vanilla Dwarfs are equal in technological advancement:

• Quality → both races share the same level of craftsmanship and attention to detail. Both races emphasize and prioritize this in the works they create. Their equipment is second to none in terms of workmanship.
• Weapons & Armour → Vanilla Dwarf created weapons/armour are legendary. The Warhammer (Ghal Maraz) of Warhammer is Dwarven-made after all. The Chaos Dwarfs on the other hand, not only create all the (equally great) weapons/armour that they use themselves, but also that of the Warriors of Chaos. Both Chaos Dwarfs and Vanilla Dwarfs produce the best stuff, and I don't think an advantage can be given to one over the other.

Points in favour of the Chaos Dwarfs being the technologically most advanced:

• Research and development of new tech→ the vanilla Dwarfs by nature/tradition are overly attached to the old ways and hesitant to explore new avenues of technology. Sure there are small splinter groups of engineers that do so (the aforementioned gyro-copters/bombers for instance) but this is the exception rather than the rule. This holds back the Dwarfs and keeps them from advancing. Continually refining an old design will only take you so far. You must be willing to learn, take risks and develop new technologies (this is clearly evident in real world warfare... there is a reason why swords are obsolete). The Chaos Dwarfs on the other hand are not shackled by this adherence to tradition. Along with the Skaven, they push forward and advance their technology, sometimes painfully so. Where the Skaven utilize warpstone in their tech, the Chaos Dwarfs have learned to bind Daemons to theirs (of course, unlike the Skaven, the Chaos Dwarfs don't produce ramshackled wooden contraptions). While the vanilla Dwarfs have stone throwers, the Chaos Dwarfs have train carriage Dreadquake Mortars. While the vanilla Dwarfs can counter the Chaos Dwarfs Irondaemons/Skullcrackers with their Gyro-copter/bomber, they have no answer for something like the K'daai Destroyer (or to a lesser extent the Hellcannon). Essentially mechanized life via the binding of daemons. Like the Skaven, they build their monsters... only better. Simply put, the Chaos Dwarfs produce more advanced tech than the regular Dwarfs. Both are of comparable quality, but Chaos Dwarfs creations demonstrate significantly greater complexity.
• Scope and magnitude of insdustrialzation→ the Chaos Dwarfs, while being one of the smallest factions, produce quality tech at a higher rate than anyone else. Remember that they not only supply the entirety of their own weapons, armour and machines of war, but they also arm all of the elite warriors, heroes and lords of the Warriors of Chaos faction. Zharr-Naggrund is closer to a early-modern industrial city than it is to a fantasy medieval one. Their rate of production is so great that they need mass quantities of slaves (backed up with steam driven machines) to mine the raw materials needed to keep pace with their industrial output. What we saw in Tamurkhan is only a fraction of the true scale of their capabilities. Tamurkhan's Legion of Azgorh is only an outpost of the exiled, it is a drop in the bucket when compared to the size and scope of Zharr-Naggrund. Total War gives a brief visual glimpse into the industrialized nature of the Chaos Dwarfs in lore:

It is a city sized mining and factory complex. Tamurkhan details the thousands of forges and the underground labyrinth of mines under the control of the Dawi-Zharr. Not to mention all the industrial waste produced... the unnatural byproduct of the magnitude of industrialized processing that they have developed and keep running. Don't get me wrong, it's one of the last places I'd like to live in within the Warhammer world, but in terms of technological industrialization, not one other race even comes close.

They may share the S-tier with the Dwarfs, but the Chaos Dwarfs represent the very top of it.

 

[Killer Angel]

Great analysis, @NIGHTBRINGER

While the vanilla Dwarfs can counter the Chaos Dwarfs Irondaemons/Skullcrackers with their Gyro-copter/bomber, they have no answer for something like the K'daai Destroyer (or to a lesser extent the Hellcannon).

i slightly disagree on that.
Hellcannon is an impressive engine of destruction, but... it's a sort of one-trick pony. It's the hellcannon, and that's it.
Vanilla dwarf bypass the use of daemons with runes, and that gives their warmachines much more variety in possible utilities. Dawi may lack the innovation, but they have a wide range of customizable options.

• Scope and magnitude of insdustrialzation→ the Chaos Dwarfs, while being one of the smallest factions, produce quality tech at a higher rate than anyone else. Remember that they not only supply the entirety of their own weapons, armour and machines of war, but they also arm all of the elite warriors, heroes and lords of the Warriors of Chaos faction. Zharr-Naggrund is closer to a early-modern industrial city than it is to a fantasy medieval one. Their rate of production is so great that they need mass quantities of slaves (backed up with steam driven machines) to mine the raw materials needed to keep pace with their industrial output. What we saw in Tamurkhan is only a fraction of the true scale of their capabilities. Tamurkhan's Legion of Azgorh is only an outpost of the exiled, it is a drop in the bucket when compared to the size and scope of Zharr-Naggrund. Total War gives a brief visual glimpse into the industrialized nature of the Chaos Dwarfs in lore:

That is the best point. CD is an industrialized nation.
In WHFB, there is simply no counterpart to CD in that field.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Great analysis, @NIGHTBRINGER

Thank you sir.

i slightly disagree on that.
Hellcannon is an impressive engine of destruction, but... it's a sort of one-trick pony. It's the hellcannon, and that's it.

You wound me deeply by disparaging my beloved Hellcannon so.



The Chaos Dwarfs literally made a sentient demonic war machine monster. As the army book states: "Part Daemon, part war machine, a Hellcannon is a massive construct of metal that growls and shakes with daemonic sentience." It's an amalgamation of technology and daemon-binding to create a living cannon. An impressive technological feat.

As for it being a one trick pony, it most definitely is not:

• it's an immensely powerful war machine (stonethrower)
• it is a fully functional monster
• it's not only a monster, but it is a ward save protected fully unbreakable monster!

It fulfills multiple rolls on the battlefield. It can be used as a war machine, as a traditional (albeit slow) monster, a back line protector or as the ultimate anvil.

Vanilla dwarf bypass the use of daemons with runes, and that gives their warmachines much more variety in possible utilities. Dawi may lack the innovation, but they have a wide range of customizable options.

I do agree that the Dawi runes are very impressive and can be used to create a great deal of versatility. That is why I have them placed squarely in S-tier.

However, outside of a few rare exceptions (Gyrocopter, Gyrobomber and airship), the Dwarfs are predominately focused on using their runes to improve and refine old tech. They aren't evolving technologically at the same rate as some of the other races. At the end of the day, technological innovation will eventually trump continual refinement. A sword design developed and refined for 2,000 years will never be as powerful as a thermonuclear intercontinental ballistic missile. You either evolve and develop new technology or you get left behind. Based on their current trajectory of technological development, I would guess that the Empire would eventually supersede the vanilla Dwarfs (unless the Dwarfs decided to abandon their reluctance to innovate). As it currently stands the Dwarfs are still above the Empire (hence the S vs. A tier ratings), but the humans are growing at a faster pace. In contrast, the Skaven and the Chaos Dwarfs are not only ahead of the Empire, but they also have a superior rate of technological evolution/growth.

 

[PlasmaDavid]

*skips over thread*

Are we including "magic bullsh*t"?

The Chorfs stuff (at least the stuff shown by Creative Asssembly) is absolute nonsense for a medieval/renaissance-ish fantasy setting. That much plate iron and stuff just isn't plausible in a pre-industrial revolution setting. Same as all the large plates of metal on generic siege towers etc in the rest of the game.

I enjoy the Total War games, but CA just went pants-on-head with too much stuff in the game, ie scale of castles and walls and such in the background of battles.

Like any in-depth fictional world debate it really just boils down to whatever each particular author wants things to be...

For more reading on the interpretation of fictional worlds check out the highly enjoyable ACOUP blog

https://acoup.blog/resources-for-world-builders/

I promise it's not just nit-picky-bulldust-for-the-sake-of-comedy, Prof Devereaux uses the fictional examples to illustrate why things in real world history worked a certain way.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

*skips over thread*

Are we including "magic bullsh*t"?

We are including magical items (weapons/armour, runes, magic/daemon infused technology, etc.) but not outright magic (spells, bound spells).

The Chorfs stuff (at least the stuff shown by Creative Asssembly) is absolute nonsense for a medieval/renaissance-ish fantasy setting. That much plate iron and stuff just isn't plausible in a pre-industrial revolution setting. Same as all the large plates of metal on generic siege towers etc in the rest of the game.

I enjoy the Total War games, but CA just went pants-on-head with too much stuff in the game, ie scale of castles and walls and such in the background of battles.

CA had the responsibility to stay true to the Warhammer fantasy world; in design, lore and spirit. That is the criteria against which they are to be judged, and in that regard they receive nothing short of top marks. Their goal was never to stay true to real-world medieval history; I'm sure there are historical miniature wargames (and video games) with just such a focus. Personally, I have no interest in such a thing, but I recognize that others may feel differently. I wanted to see the Warhammer world brought to life on the screen, and that is what CA have done. The lore and design of the Chaos Dwarfs are brilliantly represented in the game.

The Warhammer universe has never been realistic. Is an unrealistic level iron processing/usage really that significant in a world of dragons, magic spells, talking rats, Aztec/Mayan lizards riding dinosaurs, Egyptian undead with animated stone statues, vampires raising the dead, daemons, etc, etc, etc?

The Warhammer world is, has and (hopefully) will always be ruled by one simple idea: the rule of cool.

 

[PlasmaDavid]

There's a difference between realism and consistency/plausibility within a fictional setting. The industrial scale of the chorfs (as presented by CA) makes no sense compared to the existing factions and limitations established in WFB. I'm fine with them having some unique daemonic steam engines, but CAs vision of massive industrial complexes is very silly. I suppose different people draw the line at different places based on their own knowledge and expectations.

The "scale creep" bothers me more than the technology thing in TWW, but that's more of an artistic/aesthetic choice rather than setting/narrative I suppose. 100m high walls/gates are just ridiculous, ESPECIALLY when the player can't interact with them in a meaningful way.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

There's a difference between realism and consistency/plausibility within a fictional setting. The industrial scale of the chorfs (as presented by CA) makes no sense compared to the existing factions and limitations established in WFB.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Reading the Tamurkhan book, CA's depiction seems to be very much in line with the description of the Chaos Dwarfs. Furthermore, when you look at the (now discontinued) Forge World Legion of Azgorh model line, it is a near perfect match with what we see in Total War. Those models are clearly above the medieval-esque standard of Warhammer fantasy and perfectly on par with the early-industrial illustration of the Chaos Dwarfs that CA employed.

From what I've seen/heard/read, long time Chaos Dwarfs fans/players seem pretty impressed with CA's design of the Chaos Dwarfs and their world.

I suppose different people draw the line at different places based on their own knowledge and expectations.

That's fair enough. Different strokes for different folks.

I personally can't stand the Soul Grinders and Skullcannons of the Daemons roster. I really don't think they fit alongside WHFB aesthetics and especially not within the Daemons of Chaos army book. That said, CA's portrayal of them is spot on, so I can't blame them. However I can (and do) blame GW for double dipping with 40k. The models are pretty damn ugly too, but that's just personal preference.

On the horizon we will probably see End Times stuff. I really hope not, but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Killer Angel]

Thank you sir. View attachment 131233


You wound me deeply by disparaging my beloved Hellcannon so.



The Chaos Dwarfs literally made a sentient demonic war machine monster. As the army book states: "Part Daemon, part war machine, a Hellcannon is a massive construct of metal that growls and shakes with daemonic sentience." It's an amalgamation of technology and daemon-binding to create a living cannon. An impressive technological feat.

As for it being a one trick pony, it most definitely is not:

• it's an immensely powerful war machine (stonethrower)
• it is a fully functional monster
• it's not only a monster, but it is a ward save protected fully unbreakable monster!

It fulfills multiple rolls on the battlefield. It can be used as a war machine, as a traditional (albeit slow) monster, a back line protector or as the ultimate anvil.



I do agree that the Dawi runes are very impressive and can be used to create a great deal of versatility. That is why I have them placed squarely in S-tier.

However, outside of a few rare exceptions (Gyrocopter, Gyrobomber and airship), the Dwarfs are predominately focused on using their runes to improve and refine old tech. They aren't evolving technologically at the same rate as some of the other races. At the end of the day, technological innovation will eventually trump continual refinement. A sword design developed and refined for 2,000 years will never be as powerful as a thermonuclear intercontinental ballistic missile. You either evolve and develop new technology or you get left behind. Based on their current trajectory of technological development, I would guess that the Empire would eventually supersede the vanilla Dwarfs (unless the Dwarfs decided to abandon their reluctance to innovate). As it currently stands the Dwarfs are still above the Empire (hence the S vs. A tier ratings), but the humans are growing at a faster pace. In contrast, the Skaven and the Chaos Dwarfs are not only ahead of the Empire, but they also have a superior rate of technological evolution/growth.

Ah yes, i was merely discussing on details, not on the finalt result of the analysis.
CD are technologically more advanced than dawi and skaven. Giants among giants (pun intended)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Ah yes, i was merely discussing on details, not on the finalt result of the analysis.
CD are technologically more advanced than dawi and skaven. Giants among giants (pun intended)

I've nearly finished my ordered list, from one to sixteen. However, the Daemons of Chaos are... problematic. I might have to exclude them from the finished list.

 

[PlasmaDavid]

Surely lizards and tomb kings should be last, as they're not represented as using iron much/at all. (Even though IRL the egyptians could work iron, bronze was just more common) And literally every race who DOES use iron should be above that.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Surely lizards and tomb kings should be last, as they're not represented as using iron much/at all.

I think that is a fair consideration. Iron usage is a mark of technological progress.

And literally every race who DOES use iron should be above that.

What about races that merely repurpose/rework iron that was smelted, processed and forged by other races?


You should add your personal tier list to the discussion! It always fun to review and consider alternate viewpoints.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Okay, so this is what I've come up with. This is my personal list, which I've modified based on some of our discussions. A few of the armies could be swapped up or down, but I think this looks generally good. We seem to have a rough general consensus for most of the races, with few minor deviations here and there.




*The Daemons of Chaos are extremely tricky due to the vagueness surrounding the nature of their "tech" and who is the one creating it. I took (an admittedly) brief look through some of their stuff, but it remains rather unclear. If we had @Lizards of Renown with us, a DoC player, he would likely be able to provide insight that I cannot.

Here is something I found. Under the Skull Cannons of Khorne page of the army book it reads:
"Legend tells that the Skull Cannons of Khorne were forged in the furnaces at the foot of the Blood God’s throne and beaten into shape upon his mighty anvil. Some even believe that they might even have been forged by Khorne’s hand, so murderously efficient and callous are they." (page 32)

If Khorne did make them, then by the rules outlined in the original thread, the technology would be discounted. Since the text is unclear we're left up in the air.


So the issue with the Daemons of Chaos is what pieces of their tech (if any) would count towards their technological level within the context of our discussion. The following remains unclear:

• who is forging their armour, weapons, war machines and Soul Grinders? Daemons or the chaos gods?
• is the "tech" actually tech, or are they purely a magical constructs? Is something forged in the Chaos realm an actual piece of technology like the other races have, or is this some sort of divine creation? Does it materialize upon forging? Does it dematerialize if the daemon is slain or the winds of magic are cut off?

Without knowing the above, it is impossible to know what should be counted and what should be ignored. If we ignore everything (because it is god created or purely magic / daemon manifestation) then they are F tier. On the opposite end of the spectrum, if we include everything, then they are high A-tier or low S-tier on the strength of their Skullcrushers, Skull Cannons, numerous chariots and most especially the mechanized legs of the Soul Grinder.

As such, I've chosen not to rank them in my list. If anybody can address the issues above, we could always re-evaluate them.


Any final thoughts friends? @Killer Angel @Scalenex @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Imrahil @PlasmaDavid

 

[Scalenex]

I only have one disagreement of true substance. I think the Orcs and Goblins should be C-tier. Their stuff is crude, but it gets the job done and they can manufacture it quickly and easily. The Snotling Pump Wagon and Goblin Doom Driver represent innovations you don't see the other races approach.

I think it's a good call giving the Daemons of Chaos an asterisk as it were. They aren't really a mortal race.

My other disagreements are minor and largely inconsequential.

-I don't think there should be an E-tier at all. I think Vampire Counts should be top of D-tier and Warriors of Chaos bottom of C-tier.
-I think Skaven should be top of A-tier.
-I think Dark Elves should slightly edge out High Elves but remain in the same tier.
-I think Lizardmen should slightly edge out Tomb Kings but remain in the same tier.
-I think Wood Elves should be the bottom of C-tier.
-I think Ogre Kingdoms should be in D-tier, Beastmen should occupy F-tier alone

That's me though. All things considered, your tier ranking is well thought out, and you clearly had fun doing it, so I cannot really knock it.

I'll keep working on my own fantasy world where any technological innovation that is useful, will quickly get adopted by the other groups. That said, my system is not well-suited for large scale battles so I'll stick with Warhammer (I just get so few opportunties to play!).

Until @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl becomes super successful and launches his own game line, in which case I'm playing the killer otters.

 

[Killer Angel]

Tomb Kings

Surely lizards and tomb kings should be last, as they're not represented as using iron much/at all. (Even though IRL the egyptians could work iron, bronze was just more common) And literally every race who DOES use iron should be above that.

Bronze is certainly more common, but there are certain factors that support the current stand of TK.

Superior craftmanship.
Tomb Kings and Liche Priests have always carried weapons and artefacts of exquisite quality and artifice, their jewelry is top notch and the craft skills of the necrotects are probably the highest in the "human" race.

knowledge
Liche priest still "live", there are numerous example of peaceful trade with living nations, so the secret of iron is certainly not unknown to them

Total war
can we consider this a valid source for the subject at hand?
in TW, TK have access to iron: "New iron is required for swords, for shields, for war; not all of Nehekhara is left to rot."

in short; the actual use of iron may be limited, but they have the knowledge and the skills


Regarding Daemons of Chaos, i think it makes sense to set them apart from all the other armies.


Orks and goblins: their "tech" is really crude, we're talking about stone age level, BUT with some renaissance elements. maybe that's enough to put them in a upper tier

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Okay, so this is what I've come up with. This is my personal list, which I've modified based on some of our discussions. A few of the armies could be swapped up or down, but I think this looks generally good. We seem to have a rough general consensus for most of the races, with few minor deviations here and there.

View attachment 131327


*The Daemons of Chaos are extremely tricky due to the vagueness surrounding the nature of their "tech" and who is the one creating it. I took (an admittedly) brief look through some of their stuff, but it remains rather unclear. If we had @Lizards of Renown with us, a DoC player, he would likely be able to provide insight that I cannot.

Here is something I found. Under the Skull Cannons of Khorne page of the army book it reads:
"Legend tells that the Skull Cannons of Khorne were forged in the furnaces at the foot of the Blood God’s throne and beaten into shape upon his mighty anvil. Some even believe that they might even have been forged by Khorne’s hand, so murderously efficient and callous are they." (page 32)

If Khorne did make them, then by the rules outlined in the original thread, the technology would be discounted. Since the text is unclear we're left up in the air.


So the issue with the Daemons of Chaos is what pieces of their tech (if any) would count towards their technological level within the context of our discussion. The following remains unclear:

• who is forging their armour, weapons, war machines and Soul Grinders? Daemons or the chaos gods?
• is the "tech" actually tech, or are they purely a magical constructs? Is something forged in the Chaos realm an actual piece of technology like the other races have, or is this some sort of divine creation? Does it materialize upon forging? Does it dematerialize if the daemon is slain or the winds of magic are cut off?

Without knowing the above, it is impossible to know what should be counted and what should be ignored. If we ignore everything (because it is god created or purely magic / daemon manifestation) then they are F tier. On the opposite end of the spectrum, if we include everything, then they are high A-tier or low S-tier on the strength of their Skullcrushers, Skull Cannons, numerous chariots and most especially the mechanized legs of the Soul Grinder.

As such, I've chosen not to rank them in my list. If anybody can address the issues above, we could always re-evaluate them.


Any final thoughts friends? @Killer Angel @Scalenex @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Imrahil @PlasmaDavid

I would switch Dark Elves and High Elves , as they've been able to create Repeater Crossbows which is an advancement over their benign kin. Otherwise, the ranking is as I would rank them.

Regarding Orcs and Goblins, the Pump Wagon is a somewhat advanced bit of tech, but it's not created with any form of intelligence or knowledge of how to build it or replicate it - the Snotlings build them through some sort of instinct that occurs at random times, resulting in completely random contraptions that don't work half the time (the ones seen on the battlefield are those that do actually somehow work in the first place). If they actually tried to make a Pump Wagon outside of when that instinct comes into play, they couldn't because they have a level of intelligence equivalent to a Beast of Nurgle, i.e. a puppy. Thus I think the Greenskins are fine where they are.