That's good to know! Maybe the upcoming 4th edition they teased in that trailer will fix the issues with 3rd. The trailer was certainly pretty spectacular. Would you say that Age of Sigmar is better for new players, while Warhammer Fantasy and The Old World are aimed mainly at a more experienced crowd?
I play Warhammer 8th edition and have recently gotten back in to playing Warhammer 6th edition. I also intend to give TOW a try this year. I 'm not a super competitive player nor am I the best strategist, though I enjoy that aspect of the hobby. In a lot of ways, I'm more keen on the stories and lore of these games, as well as the creative aspects of it, which is a big reason I dislike AOS.
Huh, it certainly seems as though I did forget... but for strange reasons the bonus only applies when the higher-ground unit charges. By contrast, both 7th Edition and TOW allow the bonus to apply whether the higher-ground unit charged or not, which is what it should be.
Spoken like a true Dwarf general... just sit back and do not engage in the game. Your "superior" high ground rule lacks initiative; allowing a player to camp out on a hill and enjoy all the benefits (LOS and combat resolution). The 8th edition rule forces a choice on the player holding the hill: enjoy the LOS benefits of the hill for another turn but risk being charged or take the initiative and charge the approaching opponent gaining the combat resolution bonus. You can have one or the other, but not both. It's a bit more tactical. Like the magic phase, it pretty much sums up the two games relative to one another...
first of all, i don't think it's fair to picture ToW as jarjar. ToW it's not AoS, and it deserves better than that. Secondly... let's talk about it in a honest way, i would like to hear your reasoning. IMO to sit on the high groud in ToW forces you to effectively choose. In 8th the charging unit was the first on to attack. With no advantages granted by staying on a hill, not even that +1 to combat res., there was simply no reason to camp upon it, when you were in charge range. in ToW, charge gives you a bonus to initiative. You can stand your ground on a hill (thus gaining a +1 combat resolution, which seems logical to me), at the cost of probably going second, thus losing a great part of the models that could fight back. In 8th there was really no choice: you was simply punished by camping on high ground. In ToW you're still punished (lower initiative), but the +1 in combat res makes it a real choice.
But @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl loves Jar Jar. In truth, if we discount the very obvious exception of the magic phase, TOW and WHFB are pretty close in terms of tactical complexity. But there still is that magic phase! Let's say I have a unit of Infernal Guard with Fireglaives perched on top of the hill with an enemy in charging range. My battlefield options are to either: charge the enemy, thus gaining the high ground combat resolution bonus (along with the bonus for charging) use the hill's LOS vantage point to shoot at any unit in range (since you can easily draw line of sight over intervening units and additionally you aren't penalized for shooting through a unit). Hills in 8th edition were largely utilized by ranged units because of the huge LOS advantage that they conferred. As such, my comments were made in that context.
Are the stories in AoS not good? What don't you like about the creative aspects of AoS? (I'm new to the hobby )
I don't like the setting/background lore of AOS. The setting for Warhammer Fantasy/The Old World is best described as sort of dark, middle/high fantasy as opposed to AOS' high fantasy. In WF, you would have a planet where armies of normal men (or equivalent elves or dwarves) armed with medieval or renaissance era weaponry facing off against hordes of orcs, beastmen, ogres, undead or heavily armored daemon worshiping barbarians. The imagery and lore of the setting encourages/encouraged heroic storytelling in the games I would play. In AOS' setting, there are vast, near infinite planes of existence, populated with many more races(including Stormcast Eternals, a faction based off of the Einherjar of Norse legends) fighting similar foes. The scale of the setting undermines the heroic story telling in my opinion. In regards to the creative aspects I refer to, when I started playing Warhammer (late 90's), virtually all the scenery or terrain for the hobby tended to to be hand made from various materials, which is something that appealed to me as a creative sort. Whereas in AOS, there's more of a focus on buying the associated range of scenery, much of which is expensive.
Games Workshop themselves released books detailing how to build wargaming terrain (I still have a couple of them lying around). Building terrain can be highly rewarding. You end up with a unique piece that is unlike what you'd find on anyone else's wargaming table.
ah, right. If you consider ranged units it makes sense. but i would also point out that WHFB games are rarely decided by mere shooting. Even with armies as dwarfs or Empire, the main effort is carried by combat.
Those are the units that most often made use of hills in 8th. They provided an unobstructed view of the entire battlefield. The most classic example is the cannon on top of the hill, but any ranged unit benefitted greatly from it. Most games are decided by a combination of the phases of the game. While movement and combat are the most influential, magic and shooting have important parts to play. Wood Elves avoidance lists would be the exception, where the game is mainly decided by movement and shooting. All things considered, movement is the most critical phase of the game as it directly influences all other phases of the game.
So lads, would it be fair to say that the summary of your viewpoints is that Age of Sigmar is not as good (at least the current edition), while Warhammer Fantasy 7th - 8th and The Old World are roughly on par with one another? With a few of you siding with one side or the other.
More or less, yes. but AoS and Oldhammer are really different games, i wouldn't compare them. The biggest gap between AoS and Oldhammer IMO is not the massive difference between rules. They are suited to satisfy different tastes. It's the background and the lore approach.
A question for you. Do you plan to play exclusively Lizardmen/Seraphon or do you own (or plan to own) any other factions?
I only own Lizardmen models and I'd like to focus fully on them. It's Lizardmen (Seraphon) all the way!
With that information let's see if we can't help navigate your choices. Everyone is going to look for something different out of a wargame, so rather than suggest a game outright (8th edition ), let's break down their merits: Is having an official and fully fledged army important to you? If so, you should look to... WHFB 8th or AoS Games Workshop themselves have officially stated that non-featured TOW factions (which includes Lizardmen) are not tournament legal. Further, they won't be receiving any updates and should not be considered for long-term TOW play. They have provided these "legacy armies" free pdf rules, but that's it for them. As such, they will likely be left behind as the other armies are updated during the lifecycle of TOW. This is was the biggest factor that killed TOW for me personally. Is having a living ruleset (a ruleset that is currently supported and updated by GW) important to you? If so, you should look to... AoS WHFB 8th is a discontinued game and TOW Lizardmen won't be getting any more attention, so they're essentially discontinued too (or will be shortly). Most people have a very strong desire for a living ruleset, I see the merit in a discontinued one. Are you looking for a tactically demanding and complex game? If so, you should look first to... WHFB 8th ToW AoS Conversely, if you would prefer a simpler game then simply reverse that order. Is having quick and easy model access for purchase important to you? If so, you should look to... AoS While both TOW and WHFB share a lot of their range with AoS' Seraphon, some of their models must be obtained on the secondary market. This may or may not be a big issue for you. But if you want to be able to walk into a GW for all your model needs, Age of Sigmar is the way to go. Is the ability to field named special characters (important characters from the army lore) important to you? If so, you should look to... WHFB 8th or AoS Legacy Armies in TOW don't feature rules for special characters. Would you ever consider trying to field your Lizardmen models in more than one wargame? If so, you should look to... WHFB 8th It all comes down to basing. Both TOW and WHFB use square bases, but TOW uses larger square bases. If you base your models for 8th edition, you can easily place them in a movement tray with spacers to field them in TOW down the line. Going from TOW's larger bases sizes to WHFB's smaller ones is significantly more problematic and would require rebasing your army. AoS on the other other hand uses round bases, so it is the least compatible. Keep in mind that you could probably stick WHFB square based models right on top of AoS' larger round bases (via magnets or tape). While neither option is without some difficulty, WHFB basing allows for the most straight forward cross-compatibility of the three games. Are you looking to get into a ruleset right away? If so, you should look to... WHFB or TOW The AoS ruleset is about to be rebuilt for 4th edition. If you buy a Seraphon battletome now, it will be useless in a few months time. If waiting is no issue for you, then you should wait until the summer to reassess when AoS 4th edition drops. What type of lore (story world) are you interested in? "high fantasy" setting - choose AoS a more grounded medieval fantasy setting - choose either TOW or WHFB (they take place in the same setting, just a few hundred years apart) What game do your friends or players in your area play? This might single-handedly sway your decision regardless of how you answered the other questions. How frequently are you looking to play and with whom? Unless your answer to the final question skews massively to TOW, I don't really see much justification for it. Both WHFB and AoS have their relative merits. I obviously very much prefer WHFB, but the choice is up to you!