The vote before we'd all played and before the errata So much has changed! Not just from the Slanns nerf but as I get a better understanding of the TOW. So my thoughts are: - hex and enchantment are quite difficult to get off given the turn order - enchantment tends to be better as hex can be difficult as you cast before you move so it's harder to be in range - enchantment need to be careful of your vision arc if you're side to side with units - necromancy just doesn't work... And the big one.... Okay so now we are forced into either taking ethereal, temple guard, or risking a pin-cushion-toad I personally think this means Assailment and a fighting frog is much more viable. The Slann has a good charge range and will disrupt units. I have been taking Higher State of Mind (ethereal) over my preferred Becalming Cogitation thanks to the errata. With a good assailment spell the Slann can do really well in combat. In terms of magic my original thoughts were elementism was the best with lots of good spells. High and necro was next with High having a few good and a few great and Necro having a few great and a few garbage (needing a lore familiar). Battle and Illusion were not worth considering. I now feel Necro is garbage all around. High has a good assailment and given nearly every Vortex ,Hex and Enchantment get dispelled anyway I think Drain is now C grade (not F). Battle Magic is definitely worth considering, a great signature spell helps Battle (plus a great magic missile and a good vortex) but I think you need a lore familiar so it's sort of swapped with opinion with Necro. Illusion is still garbage even with a lore familiar which is a shame as it has the best assailment spell. So I think Elementalism and High are equal and the only ones you do not need a Lore Familiar, although High slightly benefits from it more. Battle can work if you put effort it. Necro and Illusion don't work at all in my opinion.
Below are my updates although I'm ranking assailment as though you will consider combat, likely with Ethereal or perhaps because you absolutely have to try to flank something. Signature Apotheosis - F Monsoon - E/C (is the enemy got missile and/or war machines?) Elementalism Storm Call - F Flaming Sword - D Plague of Rust - A Summon Elemental Spirit - E Earthen Ramparts - D Wind Blast - A Travel Mystical Pathway - D High Drain Magic - D Walk Between Worlds - F Fiery Convection - A Tempest - D Corporal Unmaking - C Fury of Cain - B Shield of Saphery - C Battle Hammerhands - B Fireball - A Curse of Arrow Attraction - D Pillar of Fire - B Arcane Urgency - D Oaken Sheild - F Curse of Cowardly Flight - E Necro Dwellers Below - F Deathly Cabal - F Unquiet Spirits - B Spiritual Vortex - C Curse of the Years - E Spectral Steed - F Spirit Leech - C Illusion (add 6" to every range and you'd have a decent list imo) Glittering Robe - F Mind Razor - C Shimmering Dragon - D Column of Crystal - D Confounding Convocation - E Spectator Doppleganger - B Miasmic Mirage - C
@discomute interesting points and I think magic is certainly something that was heavily affected by the FAQ nerfs to Slann + Arcane Vassal. My favourite lore for the Slann is actually Battle magic now. Illusion, Elementalism and High Magic are great aswell. Necromancy is quite bad, it can be viable but only with certain builds and only vs certain armies. Battle Magic: It has great Magic Missile with Fireball and the best vortex in game with Pillar of Fire (the only one you can control). Hammerhands is a nice assailment spell for Ethreal Slann or your Skink Stegadons/Troglodon. Curse of Arrow Attraction Is a decent debuff spell if you're skink heavy. Arcane Urgency is the best conveyance spell, it allows blazing fast flanks and enables the comical 40" Terradon rockbomb. Lore familiar required. Illusion: Illusion is all about battlefield control + it's our best answer to Dragons. Spells have shorter ranges so you really need to play a tight game and position your Slann and Arcane Vassals correctly (Possibly hardest lore to use correctly but you can really neuter your opponents best units with it). Crystal Column and Miasmic Mirage are S-tier spells to me. I also find chucking Stegadon chief on the other side of the battlefield with Shimmering Dragon really funny. Lore familiar + Arcane Vassals required. Elementalism: Plague of Rust is one of the best debuffs + it has good range of 21" and Wind blast is probably the best magic missile we have access to. Rest of the spells are useful but nothing crazy. Lore familiar recommended. High Magic: Solid assailment and magic missile spells and great buffs. Walk between worlds giving Reserve Move + Ethreal to Slann is something I've been wanting to play with, Temple Guard + this spell might be a great way to protect the Slann and allow him to weave in and out of dispel ranges. Tempest is the best answer to Night Goblin fanatics. High Magic would be my choice in a more Saurus heavy list because of the great buffs it can give to infantry. In a regular skink heavy list I don't see the appeal of High Magic vs other lores. Lore Familiar recommended. Necromancy: You really need some way to abuse the powerful leadership debuffs it has, we have our Terror causing monsters but that's it (Vampire counts/Tomb kings have way more). Unquiet Spirits is a good magic missile. Spiritual Vortex is ok if you plop it in front of infantry/cavalry that wants to charge because of the 5" dangerous terrain. Curse of Years is a powerful hex but the 15" range makes it hard to get off (compared to Plague of Rust/Curse of Arrow Attraction that have 21" range). Lore Familiar required. Lore of Lustria: Apotheosis = It was merely ok when you could target the Slann with it to heal and make him cause terror. Now it's useless. Monsoon = I find monsoon quite decent actually. It's 5" Dangerous Terrain and it blocks LOS. Never gotten much use of drenching shooters/war machines but 3 monsoons raging across the battlefield makes it really hard to engage you. If I'm not picking Hammerhands for my priests I'm probably picking Monsoon.
Or..... Wandering Deliberations - Dark Magic - Magic Missile Demonology - Magic Missile Elementalism - Debuff whoever your TG are fighting Lore of Lustria (Saurus Char Heals) or Monsoon (anti Shooty vs someone like dwarfs or elves) Chuck a ring on it and you have a toad that is three war machines and all the other benefits a Gen BSB brings. Always stay close to TG cause they are his boys.
Some great thoughts there. I really don't like Curse of Arrow even with a skink heavy army. It's hex which is always difficult (21 is nice tho) but even so, shoot 20 shots you reroll 3, probably an extra 1.25 hits on aveage and then we have to get through toughness and armour. It's a lot of work for minimal results in my opinion. Arcane Urgency you've made me reread. I still think it's D but maybe it could be C. I can see use for the Bastiladon. I wish I could agree with the use for Terradon (my beloved Rippers would love to get out of LoS for those archers) but the range requirement I think will restrict a lot of that. Yes you could make this work with clever positioning but casting is no guarantee so it could also leave you in a less than ideal space. I'm definitely keen for trying Battle soon after reading your thoughts. However on illusion I have to disagree. Dragons can just fly over Crystal Column it does absolutely nothing unless you can somehow manage to block LoS. AND - the range is 9"!! So even to get it close enough to effect a dragon you have to put 375 glass canon right in front of it. It's garbage against dragons, probably best for interfering with death star blocks of infantry which aren't super common. Miasmic Mirage is even worse. It's 15" and it's a Hex so you have to rely on them leaving their asset close and in visual sight of your Slann at the end of their turn. Yes my Troglodon was instrumental last game with getting Curse of the Years off via Arcane Vassel but it's once per turn, and having LoS was painful (I presume you need it?). I'm sorry I have to respectfully disagree. Dark's Magic Missile is a C Daemonology is an A Elementalism' sig is an F. (What's so great about -1 init and -1 move? That is 12 inches that is cast before the Slann moves and cannot be cast into combat?) Saurus Characters can only be healed if they are not on a dinosaur, are you really taking enough of those that Apotheosis is worth it? Ruby Ring is the internets.darling but it's level 2 so really better on something that can stay outside of their level 4 dispel range. I mean overall it's not the worst selection of Spells but you're paying 40 points for Wandering Deliberations to have a worse selection than rolling for High or Elementalism. And then you have to pay a TG tax.
Yeah k, "C grade" MM is still better than no MM. A unit with three MMs is pretty damn good imo. You need to be in the pocket to deal damage. Put your flying mage where it makes sense. Or vassal it.. regardless, if their lvl 4 is dispelling, so are you The elemental sig is to potentially tips the scales for an impending character battle or discourage a charge especially a flank, with a bastiliadon buffing your boys it can make it interesting... it is a game of inches. Apoth: TG beefed up with Saurus Chars that don't seem to die do a good job mincing almost anything put in front of them. Fear into terror is nice in certain instances depending on base contact with the character. Or heal your lone boys out there. Monsoon: obvious TG tax? Depends on who your fighting but your often hitting on 3s or 4s and often wounding on 2s or 3s. Meanwhile you mage is beind them throwing rocks. Protected more than almost any other lvl 4 People sleep on TGs but they are reliable damage output and relatively tough and defend the Slann like he is still bunkered... Almost.... Definitely not biased.... Don't look at my name.
We can agree to disagree I think, although I've recently been made aware of a vocal minority who think in the shooting phase a caster can only cast one magic missile OR one vortex, since TOW treats it like a shooting attack. I'm strongly against this for various reasons but it's something to keep in mind. PS. TG's are fine enough but expensive heavy infantry really doesn't seem to be OW efficient in my mind. If you care about such things. Running two blocks of Saurus is a bit rough but of course it's not all about power.
Yeah I noticed that too. If that becomes part of the next faq and it's only 1 spell in the shooting phase thrn then that changes everything. I can't see them going down that route but you never know.
I could perhaps see one magic missile (though I doubt it), but to remove both magic missile and vortex?? Far out, I'd stop taking Slann to be honest.
Wow. I honestly think Illusion is the best lore out there vs big monsters, which are imho the main thing you want to counter. I have been loving the Lore Familiar Miasmic Mirage and Column of Crystal Slann to stop all the 600 point dragons, which is the main problem that needs solving right now imho.
Vortexes are already not shooting attacks as they are simply not attacks, you do not roll to hit etc, i do not see the argument that they would ever be limited to once per phase. Magic Missiles is another thing entirely and a pretty big discussion atm, i can see that one both ways.
Dragons fly over the crystal column. They do not impede the dragons whatsoever. So in what way do you mean that spells helps against dragons? Can you give an example? This is not relevant. Page 136 of the rules says magic missile and vortex spells are covered in this section (of the rules book). It also says you can shoot once. Page 143 says if you know any magic missile or vortex you may attempt to cast them when chosen in the shooting phase. Some interpret this as meaning you can cast one since shooting is so specific. Some (me) think that "attempt to cast them" is plural. But whether or not they are attacks is not relevant to how the rules are written.
As BeardedLizard says, it stops LOS. I can understand you think the lore is bad if only 1 spell can stop the charge of a terror dragon, the fact that it has 2 pretty reliable ones makes it strong. Even 1 turn of the 600 point dragon doing squat is great. And that really is,, just your interpretation. The fact that it happens in the shooting phase does not make it a shooting attack. Reserve Moves also happen in the shooting phase but nobody says that is a shooting attack. You do not roll to hit with a Vortex, you do not even target a unit, you just plop it down somewhere. I think it is very tenuous to simply state it is the same as a shooting while it is a very different thing. This is one of the things to be FAQed imho. The fact that they are covered in that part does not mean they also share the rules with every other rule in that section.
These would be my ranking of spells. I honestly think that every lore bar Necro is playable in LM, with Battle, Elementalism and Illusion as all truly great options and High being a close second. I really love how many lores are good, just hate how the Slann is bad and you have to take a poor model to make use of it,, but the options are good. Signature Apotheosis - F. Agree. Its bad. Monsoon - E/C (is the enemy got missile and/or war machines?). I guess it is fine yeah, not great. Elementalism Storm Call - F Flaming Sword - D. Probably F on this, it is real bad. Cannot imagine how you think this is better than Elemental Spirit?! Plague of Rust - A. This is S tier if you ask me, if one spell deserves S it is Rust or maybe Miasmic Mirage. Summon Elemental Spirit - E. Definitely at least a B, probably an A on this. Are you playing Vortexes correctly? Measure to the wizard to dispel them, not the Vortex, a lot of people think that is why they are bad. My local area also plays it that a wizard can cast as many vortexes and magic missiles as he has, this also makes it maybe better. Taking that into account, it does great damage, slows charges, is hard to dispel, what more could you want from a spell. Earthen Ramparts - D. Great spell, one of the few ways to maybe make it so Saurus can take a cav charge. Wind Blast - A Travel Mystical Pathway - D. Feels a bit low to me, gives some cute options with teleporting dinos over impassable terrain, but yeah probably the worse spell in the lore. High Drain Magic - D. This is an F. Does bugger all. Walk Between Worlds - F. F in our list, as our Slann cannot join a unit. Fiery Convection - A. Tempest - D Corporal Unmaking - C Fury of Cain - B Shield of Saphery - C. Mostly agree with you for the rest, this is maybe a B? It is just worse than Earthen Rampart though, kinda weirded out how this spell has a higher rating than that? The stopping charging stuff is great, and you are just not using it if you are charging. Battle Hammerhands - B. Only good on specifically the Skink Priest Steg, but good on that. Fireball - A. Probably a B, no ap makes it sucky. Curse of Arrow Attraction - D. Agree Pillar of Fire - B. This spell is the nuts, definitely an A. You do have to game it, make it so you move through enemy units multiple times because you want to make it so you cannot put down the template multiple times. YOu can hit like 4-5 units every time you move this thing if you do it well, does tons of damage, but is very skill dependent. Arcane Urgency - D. Oh boy, you havent played the Terrabombing list yet right. This is a straight A, great to get our dinos in position, great on Terras, the reason to go for this lore. Oaken Sheild - F. What? This is a great spell on a Steg. I kinda dislike going a ward save on the Skink Priest Steg now cuz he can just roll this and use this. Sounds like a B to me, unreliable but good. Curse of Cowardly Flight - E. Agree Necro. Basically agree with you here. Dwellers Below - F Deathly Cabal - F Unquiet Spirits - B Spiritual Vortex - C Curse of the Years - E Spectral Steed - F Spirit Leech - C Illusion (add 6" to every range and you'd have a decent list imo) Glittering Robe - F Mind Razor - C Shimmering Dragon - D Column of Crystal - D. Definitely an A. Easy to stay outside of dispel range and stop those charges! Confounding Convocation - E Spectator Doppleganger - B. A with Dragonslaying Sword, the reason you go Illusion Lore Familiar Slann. The only reason its meh is the nerf and the fact character points are so tight. Miasmic Mirage - C. This is an A, maybe even the other S spell along with Rust. Illusion just has 3 very strong spells and 3 very meh ones, which makes it so you need to pay the Lore Familiar tax which is kinda eh, but i think it is the ONLY lore that gives us tools against Terror Dragons, and imho the BEST tools vs Terror Dragons as Miasmic Mirage really ruins a 600 points dragon's day and they will be afraid for it along with Dragonslaying Sword with Doppleganger with Column as a nice backup. Against good players, you will probably just need Illusion to keep the monsters in check our Oldbloods on Carnos cannot kill, which makes it my go to right now. Elementalism has more baseline power but doesnt really help you in the current meta, and Battle Magic is interesting with Urgency tricks and Pillar of Fire as great tricks, but since Rust has such great synnergy iwth our Poison Javelins i think Elementalism edges it out slightly in just the raw power compartment.
Great response and a few notes a) the magic and my rating were about the Slann picking a lore. A lot your ratings (e.g. oaken Sheild) were based on a priest and stegasaurus. Fair enough but not what I wrote for. b) I have to raise an eyebrow at a few of your ratings and wonder how much TOW you've played. Oaken Shield can't be cast into combat and only in your turn before anything happens - so you will get the ward save on the turn you charge and that's IF it doesn't get dispelled and since you're level 2 and far enough forward to charge an enemy it's hard to imagine being outside of their level 4's 24 inch range that often. None moreso than illusion. How many dragon charges have you prevented? Now I want to stress this is a legitimate question. I'm not trying to argue. I am really curious as I'd love to be wrong. When I ask this it sounds like I'm being a snide jerk but it's a real question. I'm interested in stats!! I've only played one dragon so I don't know. Yes I understand how vortexes work but they are cast after your movement. You need to be 25 inches from their caster. And it has a range of 9"!! So it's cast minimum of 16" from their caster... Where have they positioned their dragon and caster so you can block the LOS of the dragon and still manage to be outside of dispel range? And Miasmic Mirage is even worse because it's cast before movement. Who is leaving their dragon within 15 inches of your caster AND not in combat?? How often does that happen. Not to mention you need to roll 7, then get your Slann out of dispell range of their wizard lest they dispel it on a 7. I would genuinely like to know how often you've played against dragons and what the ratio is of being able to stop them with these spells Like I said originally - add 6 inches to each of those spells and they might do what you want them to. Because I've played one dragon and didn't run illusion. So it's all theoretical to me! (I note we agree on Necro which is where most of my experience is) But I have played enough I don't think Vortex spells are as very good (still decent) because to keep them in play you need to deprive yourself of the ability to dispel their magic. And they tend to have short ranges. PS. No I haven't played terrabombing list. After eating Bretonnian charges last game I might boost earthen Ramparts' score haha. In addition to my complaints about vortexes - Elemental Spirit is a small template that goes in a random direction so you can't rely on it to hit anything or disrupt anything. I am enjoying playing with conveyance since writing this list I might have underrated then which you've picked up on. Spectral doppleganger I think works with lessor swords too like biting blade or sword of might. Ethereal Slann are really good, crash into a flank and they can break units apart. Which brings me to my last point.... Hammerhands only good on a skink you say? Check out my last battle report.... An ethereal Slann with hammerhands charged and destroyed a unit of Pegasus knights solo over 3 combat rounds. Glory to the old ones!!
Plague of Rust is the only choice. We always have a lot of skinks and some bond spells. The best way to win a game is to cast Plague of Rust on enemy signature unit.
Hi All, First post here since 6th ed! Correct me if I'm wrong... But hex and Enhancement usually don't have the "remains in play" tag so can't be dispelled in the opponent's turn? Also. One cute play for reserve move on the slann is using it to move out of dispel range meaning they have to use their army dispel if they want to get rid of your vortex. I do like the idea of trying a GlassFrog missile. I wanted to do it with Illusion but couldn't settle on what weapon to give him to make it worthwhile. It is sad about not being able to use him to dispel once in combat however so I'd be wanting to double charge something and then have the Slann restrain so he can still dispel and cast or re-charge later.
For me it has been a pretty narrow usecase, but pretty good nonetheless. I used it like 5 games, and for all bar 1 game i used it to stop essential charges, and often enough also on the big dorgons. The downside with Illusion is that if the enemy has no big dragon, so no models more than 300-400 points, your Slann is pretty useless. Regarding the pillar, Arcane Vassal also really helps with it, as the Slann is still the caster. Do not forget you do not need to put it like directly in front of the dragon, as long as you can put it in between you and whatever it wants to charge, you are already good. You can take it away whenever you want, so at the start of movement you can take it away, it never blocks your own unit.
Hi, welcome to the forum! They do not yes, so that makes something like Miasmic Mirage pretty good. When we are talking about dispelling stuff in the enemy turn, we are mostly about the Vortexes, so for example Column of Crystal. GlassFrog missile is pretty good! Usually people go Ethereal on them along with BSB for combat res, Lore Familar to be 100% to get Doppleganger and either Ogre Blade for general chopping or Dragonslaying Sword to kill Behemoths.