One of the few unequivocally good magic changes; minor wizards no longer need to compete with Nagash and Kroak's massive unbind bonusses. Significantly reduces the dominance of those godlike wizards when it comes to magic.
How have you found Manifestations this edition so far? I'm assuming they're definitely a lot more prevalent now that they're free.
For the sake of discussion, there's a bunch of warscrolls floating around here which includes both bastiladon variants and the Hunters of Huanchi w/ Bolas (but not the dartpipe version). I think the bastiladon have been discussed before, but i'm kind of into the new HoH in particular, that +2 range is very nice when they swap out the -1 to hit on a 6 debuff for a more reliable 3+ roll to inflict -1D6 on their charges until your next turn that you only have to hit them to attempt, it being stackable if they have 3d6 charges is sweet too. I think swapping out the 5+ save for a 5+ ward is also nice, even if them being a 5 man unit of 1 health models means they'll still kind of explode if hit. The removal of bravery also means Terrawings need a new niche, so they might find some useable place in the army if they get some kind of glow up. Even if its the same ability and just nerfs control score, that could still actually be really nice to combo with deepstriking for back objectives, just to steal them easier. I'm hopeful the dartpipe guys get a similar boost to their usefulness too, they're such a fun unit. Its kind of weird that they didn't give the spell the Unlimited keyword, and instead just printed in the spell that you can just use it as many times as you have casts for in any given phase, but I think the damage output isn't something to write off if he's available for a reasonable amount of points. 9D3 to to 3 units isn't bad, and anyone in range for the spell is in range for his shooting attack to fairly likely toss out another d6. He is a lot squishier than he used to be with Dead for Innumerable Ages being per turn rather than phase, but you also have counterplay because it only procs if he has damage allocated to him at the end of the turn, rather than if he took damage, so any kind of healing can mitigate some level of the chip (even if that is a lot of investment to keep him around- but at the same time, i think he's probably the kind of centrepiece you end up building around in some way or another). He also innately gets the -1 to hit on shooting attacks targeting him if he's parked next to something that isn't a hero, which seems fairly easy to do
Unlimited doesn't let the same wizard cast multiple times. Damage output on kroak is down and no fight last. If he's a lot more than slann it feels hard to include him imo
I've seen the Dartpipes warscroll, and while they're technically better than they used to be, they're still not as good as the bolas imo. They have the same base stats and a 10" range, and their Star Venom ability says that if you damage a unit with their dartpipes, they have -1 to wound rolls but only if you roll a 2+. Again, better than they used to be imo, but it'll be a bit tougher to pull that off. I'll be going with the Star Bolases and making use of their teleport to pick up some early battle tactics. I concur, especially because he doesn't even have the recursion rules that a normal slann does. That makes Kroak a very successful caster, but he has to focus primarily on either his frankly short-ranged damage spell or casting buff spells that a normal slann could cast. For however many more points Kroak ends up being, I don't think it would pay for the extra +1 casting over a normal slann and the unique warscroll spell.
The dartpipes suffer too much from range being reduced in 4th. The bolas on the other hand benefit from the range reduction in 4th. They're no longer massivly outranged by proper dedicated ranged units. .... please don't tell me that we've somehow ended up with half the rule of one. Nevermind strong; how did you end up using them? Did they regularly get destroyed, or only unbound? Where you regularly recasting them or only cast them once per turn? Did you actually using the entire lore, or where you only ever interested in one spell ignoring the others? etc.
I don't think the dartpipe chameleons are as hurt by the range reduction as by the fact that their special rules is not as potentially helpful as the bolas chameleons. Unfortunately, neither set of chamos can re-hide after being revealed. So, neither unit will likely live past the turn they ambush, unless they are far out of the way.
Their special rule isn't amazing. But more importantly at 10" range a unit like chameleons with dartpipes just doesn't function. They're basicly jezzails without the range, and that -1 to wound & ambush do not make up for the lack of range. Bolas are probably going to live surprisingly long simply because they're fairly easy to forget about. They don't do enough damage to be a threat, and their special rule is surprisingly situational. Unless you really don't want to deal with that anti-charge rule, they're often just not going to be a priority.
Official downloads of core rules are now avaiable I like that they split up units & heroes into two tables. If nothing else 4th is at least making things a lot more readable. Several units seem rather expensive, but with just this its difficult to say anything sensible. There's also some weirdness regarding rippers & terradons, you can take both a 3 and 2-man unit. There is some explicit interaction with the chief. Maybe you can stick the chief in a unit? Faction packs come tomorow.
I'm sure there's a lot to say about the points changes, but the big one that stands out to me is how laughably expensive Kroak is for what he does. 460pts!!! 180 more than a Slann! I can't see him being taken at all anymore lol. Trying to spitball some lists, the restrictions and increases definitely make it feel more like trying to make a 1000pt list in 3rd edition.
Respectfully, I disagree. One unit has an ability that does something outside of damage (bolas) and the other doesn't (dartpipes). Situational as it may or may not be, limiting a charge is a good ability. Neither will live that long b/c you're likely using them to either snag an objective or score some tactic.
O sure, if they're on an objective they're quick to die because your opponent wants that objective. But not because the chameleons themselves are important. And yeah, that charge ability is good when it's relevant. It just isn't going to be relevant all that frequently. So a lot of players are probably going to feel secure largely ignoring them when given the choice. Which is the point I'm trying to make; purely on their own merit bolas are rarely going to be a particularly high priority target. So as long as they stay more or less out of the way; they'll live surprisingly long. If they ever do get in the way they'll immeadiatly get annihilated though, obviously . Honestly, a lot looks quite expensive. Ripper and terradon chief for 150. Troglodon for 280. Bastiladon for 290 Kroxigor for 220 Terradons for 110 Rippers for 120 Carnosaur for freaking 330! There's a lot of stuff that seems to have spiked in pointcost, and based on the warscrolls we've seen that does not seem exactly justified.
Ahh, see I'm ahead of the curve on this one, as I still haven't gotten around to actually buying Kroak yet The best Coalesced armies of old made do without the slann, which was my preferred style of play, so I held off from buying both a slann and Kroak. Looks like I'll be wanting to pick up a slann now though... I'll personally be taking the bolas over the dartpipes because I like the consistency of their ability over the dartpipes. A guaranteed reduction to charge when targeted by the bolas sounds a lot better than -1 to wound if damage is dealt and then a 2+ is rolled. Plus, bolas are only 10pts more than dartpipes. Also, I'll be looking into taking the hunters of huanchi in the first place for exactly what Skink said, score one of the Grand Alliance battle tactics and also snag outlying objectives. An interesting tactical use for having an extremely fast or a teleporting unit is that with sticky objectives, players may feel free to have their units leave home objectives to make use of their full army rather than standing idle on an objectives like in 3rd edition. Including a unit that can steal these open objectives therefore forces your opponent to have to keep their units holding objectives rather than using them to attack the rest of your army.
Oh yeah, I can't believe how expensive the Oldblood on Carnosaur is now. Definitely not worth the +110 increase. Now Kroxigor, I can at least somewhat understand their points increase. They've got 6 wounds now, and having looked at their revealed warscroll, they can really dish out ludicrous amounts of damage (at the right targets). Doesn't make it any less easy to stomach, but perhaps a bit more justified than the carno or kroak. Definitely eager to see the full warscrolls tomorrow. I've already got a list drawn up, but I have to see the actual details to know if they're worth said points or not.
Yeah, I was surprised by the Carno's points. Unless I'm missing something, he will still whiff more than not. And, since he's not that sturdy, he will probably get wiped out by the attack back (especially if it's virtually any other monster).
I'll wait to give more comments until I actually get to see the full index rules, but so far 4e isn't looking worth it to me. Thankfully I have friends who still want to play 3e. Kroak and the Carnosaur, my two favorite models, are basically useless with those point costs. Everything's going up in lethality, gameplay seems to be all about massive "wombo-combos" and chaining reactions and trap card-esque strategies on your opponent and wiping them out early, or getting wiped out yourself. Definitely not a fan of control score, and that so many units have abilities that raise or lower it. Just another annoying stat to keep track of and constantly be adding and subtracting from. I don't like the way it sounds like it will play where one player goes "I have more guys over here, so I'm winning" Then you say "Oh, but my guys have a banner that says I'm winning!" Then they go "Oh, but I can use this ability where my hero yells at you menacingly so I'm winning!" "Oh, but my hero has an aura of awesomeness that negates that so I'm winning!" Very "gamey," as Canas put it. It will be fun for the super-strategists to be able to laugh at you and pat themselves on the back because they managed to win in points because they had better control score even though you managed to outmaneuver or outfight them, but it doesn't sound fun at all for any sort of casual play. I'm not a "doomsayer" when it comes to new things, but I'm also definitely not one of those people who's always excited for new thing because new thing. So far, new thing looks a bit rubbish and I'm definitely not very interested in it. Which is a bit saddening because some of the basic concepts for 4e were looking interesting. But everything just looks so lackluster and they've massively nerfed so many things for no reason. I guess with each new edition there's a specific idea GW has in mind as the "right way" to play. Having come in at the start of 2e and seen the transition to 3e and now 4e, as well as going through a couple 40k edition changes now, I personally always have a hard time figuring out the "right way" GW wants me to play my favorite factions. And when I do figure it out (or someone smarter explains it to me, lol!), it's usually not the way I want to play
Should probably try a game before you write if off. You really have no idea if those models are useless because you have no context of what works in fourth edition. I've played with both carnos several times and they don't feel awful by any means. A lot of damage three attacks will kill things haha. Your assumption of wombo combos and trap cards are just... I dunno. You don't need to like it, but there's a lot of faulty assumptions floating around here and I haven't found those assumptions to be true in the games ive played. If you're feeling up to it, id consider giving it a try. It might surprise you. Lol does it matter? You don't exactly take my experiences very seriously. It's so a box of three can make a chief and an actual unit and not leave you with just two random terradons. Stormcast does it as well with the dragons so you can buy a box of two and use one to be the hero model and you aren't left with a solo dragon that isn't good for anything. Also fwiw, the two hunters of huanchi units might be the best units in the whole army.
This is one of the things that bothers me the most about the reveals for 4th. It's so very clear that GW has specific intends with their design and there's supposed to be a "correct" way to play, especially with this edition. But because GW only reveals bits and pieces, and refuses to just show even a basic combo, it becomes very unclear what exactly that intended playstyle is supposed to be at times. OC being a prime example of GW repeatedly showing off rules that interact with the mechanic, but never actually showing any examples of "common" scenarios and intended plays. It's very weird that GW essentially refuses to actually introduce and explain the new edition. All they need to do is put in one of those "orders sir?" articles from white dwarf for some mechanics/factions/etc. and it'd clear up a lot of confusion. Plus, they'd just be a lot more fun to read than yet another dump of warscrolls O I do. I might not agree with your opinions, or think you are doing things wrong. But they are informative. Especially in this case since GW is refusing to show any freaking practical examples of intended gameplay. GW doing something that's vaguely good for the customer's wallet? That can't be it O, I'm sure they will see a lot of use; in tournaments especially. They're basicly just fancier skinks with an actually functional warscroll with abilities and stats and everything. And skinks are already considered to be one of the "best" units. Essentially, they're what regular skinks wishes they are. Doesn't mean the warscrolls are perfect. They should probably come in sets of 10 though (or got proper 5-man stats...). But I guess that combined with their deepstrike nonsense, that'd be deemed too OP in the hands of a good player. And the blowpipes need to decide if they want to bring utility with their -1 to wound, or be snipers with their crit(auto-wound) and actually commit to one niche (e.g. get some range if you go for sniping, or getting a more reliable proc if you go for utility). Instead of halfassing both niches. But the foundation is solid enough.