Discussion What is your favorite and least favorite aspect of Lizardmen (or Seraphon) lore?

[- Q -]

From a story and background perspective, what do you like and dislike about the Lizardmen/Seraphon? What would you change if you could?

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I personally quite like all of it I think, at least I can't think of anything major to really change.
Well maybe their involvement in the story could have been better overall, at least in fantasy.
As for AOS, and what little I know, I do like that it seems we are more active players in the setting and conceptually I like a lot of the ideas, even the order daemons, even if the execution was perhaps not the best.

I think if I had to change something, it would be the End Times (not very original I know I know). I simply think the Lizards should have played a muuuuch bigger role, especially with everything regarding the Great Vortex.

 

[- Q -]

even if the execution was perhaps not the best

How do you feel that the execution could have been improved?

I think if I had to change something, it would be the End Times (not very original I know I know). I simply think the Lizards should have played a muuuuch bigger role, especially with everything regarding the Great Vortex.

I haven't gotten around to End Times lore yet, but from what I can gather, most people don't speak very highly about it.

Originally, the Slann helped the High Elves create/sustain the magical vortex, right?

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I haven't gotten around to End Times lore yet, but from what I can gather, most people don't speak very highly about it.

Originally, the Slann helped the High Elves create/sustain the magical vortex, right?

Yeah The End Times were not great. It was mostly clear that the intention was not to write a good story, and most races got the short end of the stick.

And you are correct, in lore the High Elves might have created the Vortex, but the only reason it is still functioning is the Slann, and the Elves don't know, there's only a few that have some notion of an idea that something else is lending their aid, I believe Teclis is one of them.

Since you haven't gotten around to it yet, all I'll say is, that with that in mind, I think the story is lacking some kind of explanation.

How do you feel that the execution could have been improved?

I think the biggest issue is the commitment to the idea, which I think is partially just it being early in AOS, so most factions did not have a lot going on.
However it is a though thing to do in this case, as we were and existing army, and you are going to tread on some people's toes with that direction.
I just don't think there was enough groundwork laid down, at the time, to justify the shift, and now we have moved away from it (which I don't necessarily mind either, as I love the old school vibes as well).
Then there is also the issue that the theme is competing with Stormcast Eternals; My personal opinion is that Stormcast is a bad faction, but to be fair I am biased and despise Sigmar, so no points from me there - still I think Lizardmen could have filled the role a lot better than Stormcast, and would have fit way better with the lore we have got in AOS, but GW wants their marines I suppose.

 

[pyro-dragon]

I love the lore about the amount of building and infrastructure the lizardmen did in Lustria. It's a great reflection on just how developed the Aztec civilization was.
Biggest gripe is the idea that Saurus are just combat robots with no life outside of war. I can't imagine these guys just sitting in a cupboard or something until the wardrums sound.

Still learning AoS lore but the idea that there are a bunch of lizardmen that are just made of star energy or something sounds a bit bunk. The models look cool as heck though.

 

[- Q -]

Yeah The End Times were not great. It was mostly clear that the intention was not to write a good story, and most races got the short end of the stick.

Was it a case of low effort or a rushed job, or did simply not land despite best intentions?

Then there is also the issue that the theme is competing with Stormcast Eternals; My personal opinion is that Stormcast is a bad faction, but to be fair I am biased and despise Sigmar, so no points from me there - still I think Lizardmen could have filled the role a lot better than Stormcast, and would have fit way better with the lore we have got in AOS, but GW wants their marines I suppose.

I get the impression that you are far from the only person to dislike the Stormcast. A lot of people seem to hate them.

At the same time, I would guess that there must also be a lot of people who love them, otherwise they wouldn't be profitable enough to garner such attention from the overlords at Games Workshop.

Biggest gripe is the idea that Saurus are just combat robots with no life outside of war. I can't imagine these guys just sitting in a cupboard or something until the wardrums sound.

I agree, that does seem kind of strange.

Still learning AoS lore but the idea that there are a bunch of lizardmen that are just made of star energy or something sounds a bit bunk.

I'm pretty new in the hobby, and currently working through Warhammer Fantasy Battles material, so I'm extremely poorly versed in Age of Sigmar Seraphon lore. I have heard about this star energy concept, but don't know much about it beyond its existence. Seems a bit weird at a glance, but I have admittedly not given it a fair chance... yet.

The models look cool as heck though.

Absolutely beautiful models!

 

[J.Logan]

I have heard about this star energy concept but don't know much about it beyond its existence.

Easiest way to consider it is a carryover of the early AoS attempt to turn the Seraphon into Order Daemons. That got retcon'd into a sub faction with the whole "they absorbed celestial/Azyr energies over millennia while in hibernation in deep space" or some nonsense to that effect, while the true successors to the lizardmen are the Coalesced, who are feral and terraforming the land they live on into patches of old Lustria.

 

[pyro-dragon]

Easiest way to consider it is a carryover of the early AoS attempt to turn the Seraphon into Order Daemons. That got retcon'd into a sub faction with the whole "they absorbed celestial/Azyr energies over millennia while in hibernation in deep space" or some nonsense to that effect, while the true successors to the lizardmen are the Coalesced, who are feral and terraforming the land they live on into patches of old Lustria.

Does the Slann themselves do this terraforming or is it something lesser mages can do? Or is this some in-built function of the temple-ships when they land and develop into cities?

 

[J.Logan]

Does the Slann themselves do this terraforming or is it something lesser mages can do? Or is this some in-built function of the temple-ships when they land and develop into cities?

They have structures within their temple-ships called Realmshaper Engines. For the Coalesced, when they land their temple-ship and decide to go native, they have the realmshaper in the heart of their new settlement, and convert the lands to be more Lustrian.

Starborne do also make use of realmshapers, but my understanding is that they use it for strictly strategic purposes, to make a battlefield or potential battlefield more advantageous for them.

As an aside, the decision of a seraphon to shed the Azyr energies and go native is a one-way street. Once they've done so, they can't regain the starborne status. To quote the Stars and Scales supplement of the Soulbound RPG:

"Starborne Seraphon have many reasons for coalescing,
ranging from the understandable to the ineffable. Perhaps
you wish to secure a location or better understand a realm,
or perhaps your Slann simply gave you the order and you
didn’t question why. When you take this Endeavour, you
gain a permanent physical form."

"Coalesced: Coalesced Seraphon have lived away
from the heavens for too long, and have embraced
their bestial nature."

"They have coalesced after spending so long away
from Azyr and can never return to the heavens."

 

[- Q -]

Easiest way to consider it is a carryover of the early AoS attempt to turn the Seraphon into Order Daemons. That got retcon'd into a sub faction with the whole "they absorbed celestial/Azyr energies over millennia while in hibernation in deep space" or some nonsense to that effect, while the true successors to the lizardmen are the Coalesced, who are feral and terraforming the land they live on into patches of old Lustria.

That is interesting. So there are two types of Seraphon. The Azyr energy kind (Starborne) and the flesh and blood kind(Coalesced). Do know roughly the proportion of each? Are there more of one kind than the other? Do they get along?

I definitely have to read up on the AoS Seraphon lore.

As an aside, the decision of a seraphon to shed the Azyr energies and go native is a one-way street. Once they've done so, they can't regain the starborne status.

That's pretty cool. It's a pretty consequential decision then.

 

[J.Logan]

Do know roughly the proportion of each? Are there more of one kind than the other?

I don't, off the top of my head. Don't recall if I'd ever read any such statistics at all. Part of my thinks Starborne would have more numbers, as they aren't likely to be in as much danger of being attacked in their home, whereas Coalesced have actual temple-cities that can in theory be attacked. But then I also wonder whether the nature of Coalesced mean that they can gradually expand and build new temple-cities which then spawn new spawning pools - yes, the spawning pools are no longer quite so limited, though even the Coalesced don't quite understand how the new pools are being created, so it's still a resource they will protect to the death.

Do they get along?

I think they just see each other as separate tribes? But again, I can't recall off my head if I ever read anything that suggested one way or the other how they feel about each other.

I do recommend giving the Stars and Scales supplement for Soulbound a read if you get the chance, it is the book that is specifically about Seraphon. It's been a while since I skimmed through it, so I can't recall most of what I read. I do recall that it includes tidbits like the skink that identifies as a female, though the book left it ambiguous as to whether it was due to her own feelings, or just how her mammalian allies perceive her.

And if anybody else knows of any supplements for the two Warhammer RPGs that include lore on lizardmen/seraphon, feel free to mention.

(Yes, I am aware of the Lustria supplement for Fantasy RPG, so don't worry about mentioning that one...)

 

[- Q -]

yes, the spawning pools are no longer quite so limited, though even the Coalesced don't quite understand how the new pools are being created, so it's still a resource they will protect to the death.

Do you know if there are new Slann ever spawned in AoS or is it similar to Warhammer fantasy?

 

[J.Logan]

Do you know if there are new Slann ever spawned in AoS or is it similar to Warhammer fantasy?

Off the top of my head? I do not think they've had new spawnings even in AoS; even in the new setting, they are a rare and endangered breed.

Logically, I feel like they should be getting new, albeit very rare spawnings, simply because of the scale of the realms, and that time is moving forward with victories and loses. With a finite amount of Slann, there will eventually reach the point where we're saying 'hold on, how are they still around when canonically we've seen X number die? They aren't replenishing, by now they should all be gone'. But at the same time, it's likely one of those details that we aren't meant to think about, especially since Seraphon don't get front and center focus often enough for such issues to become noticeable.

But that's off the top of my head without digging into any lore sources, maybe there's a detail I've missed.

 

[Paradoxical Pacifism]

Their sense of mystery and unique perspective on the world. Their lore has a lot of open-endedness to it, so when writing about the lizards, there's much freedom to be had. Are they an ally of man-kind, or has circumstance led them to consider man-kind an enemy? Their inscrutable nature means which side they'll end up on is more random than a coin-flip.

I don't like to think they're completely emotionless automons whose only directive is the Great Plan. That's just not entertaining for me.

 

[J.Logan]

I don't like to think they're completely emotionless automons whose only directive is the Great Plan. That's just not entertaining for me.

Thank you, this.

I believe they they should be difficult enough for the warm-blooded races to read that they appear that way to outsiders, but they are still characters with emotions and personalities. Just look at Kroq-Gar and how fond he is of Grymloc. That is not a show of an emotionless bio-robot.

Skinks would be the closest to actually being seen as having emotion by the warmbloods, but even then the otherness in their behaviour is enough to distract and prevent most people from getting a read on them.

 

[- Q -]

I believe they they should be difficult enough for the warm-blooded races to read that they appear that way to outsiders, but they are still characters with emotions and personalities.

I like this idea so much more than the official canon. It would make them much more interesting as fictional characters.

 

[WildColonial Boy]

I don't like how they changed that saurus could ride cold ones. In the first GW incarnation of lizardmen, saurus were just the muscle and the skinks had the knowledge and skills and hence they could train and ride the cold ones. The old dogs of war skink cavalry looks and 'feels' better that the saurus cavalry.

 

[pyro-dragon]

I dunno man. While the first iteration of saurus cold-one riders were a bit awkward, I think with the new revision of saurus to be more lizardy, the rule of cool kicked in and having those saurus riding large raptors is pretty good, at least from an aesthetics thing.

 

[J.Logan]

As the warrior caste, it makes sense that Saurus can be cavalry, but they would be specifically heavy/shock cavalry.

The long absence of skink cavalry up until the release of the raptordons made no sense however, as skinks would be/are ideal for a skirmishing cavalry, the lizardmen equivalent of the Empire's pistoliers. Obviously, now we have them in AoS Raptordons, but my point stands. Saurus are the heavy hitters, skinks are the skirmishers, and that should apply even in cavalry roles.

Not to say you can't have exceptions, like Tichi-Huichi.

 

[WildColonial Boy]

Tichi-Huichi.
Itzi-Bitzi (yellow polka dot bikini)

GW sometimes had a laugh with character and item names. The orcs are a classic example with their special magic weapons