8th Ed. No-Slann armies

As I mentioned over in my Army Lists post, I'm looking to get out of a rut by experimenting more. Nothing will force me out of my comfort zone more than dropping the Slann, who has been a mainstay/crutch of all my lists over 1,500 for as long as I can remember.

So, lets talk about running without a Slann.

The initial analysis is that there are now three roles that need to be filled: General, BSB and wizard. Whilst its claimed that a Level 4 is mandatory, I'm not entirely convinced, and some people fill the magic gap by using the ever-popular Tetto'ekko. Others, including Sleboda, rely just on a couple of Skink Priests throwing low-level buffs around, and this actually opens up a lot of interesting list options. You can chuck a Blastydon in for some magical blasting, and if you're on Beasts even the Engine of the Gods becomes tempting for that reduction in casting values on Wildform. Either way, unlike last edition's Becalming filth, even with a Slann you have to pretty much accept that the enemy is going to get a few spells through - so not having a level 4 doesn't seem like as big a penalty as I might have thought. Thinking back to my recent games, I'm mostly using the Slann for a few early phase magic missiles to take out Chimeras and things, and then pure combat buff/debuff utility. Skink Priests on Heavens do this job equally well.

What about the other two roles? Well, with BSB, again there's a few options available. The obvious choice is of course to slap one on a Scar-Vet Cowboy and just let him do what he does best. But I might want your Cowboy charging off in places where its not wise to have the BSB - but there's Skinks, and a couple of options ranging from dirt-cheap right up to mobile mounted on a Terradon.

And, finally, the General. There's only (Sadly) one alternative: an Oldblood. But Oldbloods are absolutely hard as nails, and without a Slann you can quite easily fit two of these murder-machines in your list. And with that statline, why wouldn't you want two?

How does this start to shape the rest of the list? I've already mentioned Blastydons and Engines. With more Saurus characters, mounted or on foot, there's options for a big Cold One bus, or just a 5-6 strong delivery system. Saurus blocks actually start to become a bit more attractive, too; giving static-combat res and LoS for Saurus characters, without any weird footprint issues that you'd get with Skinks. And without a Slann, I might not be as inclined to go down the Temple Guard route: and that opens up a big 400 point gap into which 8 Kroxigor might fit nicely.

The list that I have in mind was inspired by this one,.

So - for those brave Lizard players out there who have risked no Slann builds - what have I missed? Is there anything else to consider? How have your games gone? Would you recommend, and never consider going back?

I'm inclined to go with a Dual Skink priest lvl 2 w/ heavens build, and skink chiefs on terra's for Hero, with 2x oldblood in lord choices!

I am really in love with terra-chiefs, and having 2 would be so much fun, they provide a neat mobile combat resolution and are tough enough, and a prime egg carrier!

I really feel Lizards strength lies in their lords and heroes, and i feel a list without a slann optimizes that so much more than a list with one!

I sadly haven't tested it yet, and i'm still gonna use a slann in some lists for sure as i'm all about trying it all

I'm also a big TG fan, and i would pobably use them without a slann!

I think i'd go for something along the lines of :

All skink core with 1 large cohort (50ish).

TG block of 30ish.

Saurus cav x 6ish

Bastiladon.


And tbh i'm not sure i'd be able to get much more at very many points values :/

I think i'll play around with that a bit...

Are the templeguards needed though? At 2500pts we can have a heavy hitting COR bus with 2 OBs and a scar vet (BSB?) and spend our core on 2 big blocks of skinks. They're fast and acts as tarpits. From here on we can spend 400-450pts on; 2 big blocks of rippers, 2 ancient stegadons, 8 kroxigors or whatever that pleases you. All options will be fast moving and not slowed down by M4 saurus unit(s).

But yeah, going without the slann definatetly opens up for something else.

I'll always argue that a slannless list is fighting an uphill battle right from the get go.

Lizardmen rely pretty heavily on magic to plug the inherent holes in the book.

Without slann I'd suggest a bus list with cold one riders. There's really no other way to get a reliable punch into the army.

Old bloods on carnosaurs suffer from "please cannon me" syndrome. Kroxigor don't have the saves to stick around and temple guard aren't worth their points without a Slann for those juicy special rules.

A big bus is definitely effective, and elsewhere I linked these videos showing just what it can do.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of playing buses (or Death Stars, for that matter). I don't really enjoy the all eggs in one basket approach. For that reason, I'd prefer the Temple Guard approach - with their WS4 and S5 attacks they are the only really decent combat unit. Maybe throwing in the Banner of Swiftness so that they can be joined by some Cowboys and get right up in there.

To that end, here's the list that I'm considering (yes, I know its not the Army Lists forum, but its relevant!):

Oldblood with Armour of Destiny, Egg, Sword of Might, Shield. The General. Sits in the Temple Guard or Saurus block, and cracks his egg over things that are going to ruin his boys first.
Oldbood with Pihrana Blade, Potion of Strength, Dawn Stone, Charmed Shield, Cold One. The Daemon Prince/Moustrous Cavalry hunter.

Scar-Vet with Cold One, Light Armour, Great Weapon, Sacred Stegadon Helm, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant, Potion of Foolhardiness, BSB. Probably a little too risky to the BSB, but I really like the build. The Pendant is to tank out Daemon Princes, Flying Exalteds, Chimeras, Pegasi Masters, and all the rest.
2x Level 2 Skinks with Dispel Scroll and Cube, both on Heavens because I really like the utility of the lore (also - comet), and casting values are a little bit lower than Beasts. I'll probably try both, though.

24 Saurus Warriors, Full Command.
19 Skink Cohort, Full command.
12 Skink Cohort, Champion (challening out Deamon Princes)
11 Skink Cohort, Champion
10 Skink Skirmishers, Javelins.

23 Temple Guard, Full Command and Banner of Swiftness.
3 Terradons
3 Terradons
6 Cold One Riders, Banner. One of the Cowboys can go here.
Blastydon for blastin'

I'd run musicians over champions in cohorts.

The swift reform is infinity more useful.

Also, are temple guard really worth it without the Slann special rules? Seems like your paying a pretty premium for what ends up being a pretty average combat unit without the special rules.

Its a good question, but I like to have at least one average combat block in the list - and Core Saurus definitely aren't it.

GCPD said:

Its a good question, but I like to have at least one average combat block in the list - and Core Saurus definitely aren't it.

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Yeah. One of the fatal flaws of the book I think. Temple guard rely on a Slann for their sweet stubborn goodness and really the only other option is saurus. And they are nothing to write home about.

Unless you start looking at a big block of krox, but that's not quite the same thing IMO.

GCPD said:

And, finally, the General. There's only (Sadly) one alternative: an Oldblood. But Oldbloods are absolutely hard as nails, and without a Slann you can quite easily fit two of these murder-machines in your list. And with that statline, why wouldn't you want two?

So - for those brave Lizard players out there who have risked no Slann builds - what have I missed? Is there anything else to consider? How have your games gone? Would you recommend, and never consider going back?

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I disagree with your assessment that Oldblood is your only option for general.

A Scar Veteran has the same leadership so it can be the general just as easily. You would want to use a Scar Veteran general if your you gear up Oldblood murder machines and leave your Scar Veteran in a big block. That way you can be as aggressive as you want with your Oldblood(s) and not worry about giving your opponent 100 free victory points for a dead general. I've done that a few times.

Another option is to make a Skink Priest your general. Saurus units have leadership 8 so they don't actually NEED a general's leadership. Skinks can certainly benefit from a general's leadership but in my experience they are rarely 12 inches from my main Saurus blocks. A Skink Priest in a unit of Skirmishers will be able to run avoidance, provide useful spell casting abilities and probably not die. I've run a Skink Priest general with a Scar Veteran BSB a few times and done okay.

On an unrelated note, I think there should be discussion of monster riding generals and BSBs. I've seen Orc and Goblin players benefit greatly from Wyvern riding generals providing an 18 inch leadership bubble. My own experiments with 18 inch leadership bubbles (Carnosaur generals and Carnosaur or Stegadon BSBs) have been less than successful, but I have not given up on the concept. With an 18 inch command range your fast moving chaff might actually get some leadership bonuses. I enjoy that. I don't enjoy how vulnerable dinosaur riding BSB/generals are to heavy shooting.

I ran a 3500 point game not long ago with no Slann and won pretty handily. I used a Solardon, EOTG and two Skink priests (one with the Ruby Ring) and I had okay magic phases. The new book has made Slann-less more viable than it used to be.

I am working on adding large Kroxigor blocks to my lists. I have yet to try lots of Kroxigor sans Slann. I guess when I run heavy Kroxigor I feel obligated to take some Life magic (either from a Life Slann, WD Slann, or High Slann), but I can see a strong case for having a large unit of 8-10 Kroxigor with a unit of Skirmishers and a Beast caste Skink priest tailing behind for Wyssans.

I should stick on the 150 points way.

What we can do with 150 or below points? In terms of real use (MSU infantry blocks with Initiative 1 or 2 is stupid.)
Lords
-------
Oldblood on foot with 2+ AS (ideal general, they will think he will be tooled up as hell and surely will avoid him, 3 Wounds better than 2)

Hero
-------
Fully geared Scarvet on foot. Well kited Scarvet on coldone
Flying Skink chief with 2+ AS and some offensive tricks
Skink priest lvl 1 or 2, dispel or cube.
Skink priest lvl 1 or 2, Sivejirs Hex scroll. (game breaking item)

Core
-------
Horde of naked skinks. 3x10. They are great for movement denial, you should place them near general and they can be deployed in mid (if are running a steamrolling flank) or in the flank (to deny non flyers supports)
Blocks of skinks 5x6.
2 x 10 skirmisher skinks
1x Skrox dart.

Special
--------
Bastiladon
4x Ripperdactyles / Terradons
5x Cold Ones (naked)
11x Chameleons
4x Swarms
3x Kroxigors

Rare
----------
2 Razordons with extra snack.
1 Salamander with extra snack.


As we can see there's a lot of roles that can be used for only 150 points. Now you should split your total army points into fractions assigned to fulfill those roles. Also some units do more than one role, so it gives you even more balance.

just like in 1500 points game you'll have 10 fractions.

Now you use:
1 fraction to warmachine hunters. ( Ryppers, Terradons, Chamos or flying hero)
2 fractions in magic ( 2 priest, or 1 priest & 1 Bastiladon)
1 fraction in redirectors/chaff ( Skrox, skirmisher, Razordons, Salamanders)
1 fraction in supports ( COR, Razordons, Skrox, Salamanders, Kroxigors, Swarms, Bastiladon)
2-3 fractions in blocks ( Skink cohorts, or mix with Saurus + Skinks)
3-2 fractions in Hammer units ( Krox, bunch of razordons/salamander, Oldblood / Scarvet, Stegadon, CoR, Temple guard)

in percentage:
-Warmachines hunter 10%
- Magic 20%
- Redirectors/Chaff 10%
- Supports 10%
- Blocks 20-30%
- Hammers 30-20%

So you cover pretty well all the roles without the need of Slann. Also you will gain more hints in your army like more support units, movility, Hammers and so on.

Scalenex said:

I've run a Skink Priest general with a Scar Veteran BSB a few times and done okay.

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I'm not entirely sure this is a legal combination.

Your general has to be the character with the highest leadership and the BSB cannot be the general. So you end up with a conflict where the highest Ld Character is also the BSB.

hdctambien said:

Scalenex said:

I've run a Skink Priest general with a Scar Veteran BSB a few times and done okay.

Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure this is a legal combination.

Your general has to be the character with the highest leadership and the BSB cannot be the general. So you end up with a conflict where the highest Ld Character is also the BSB.

Click to expand...

No you end up with the Skink priest being the general because the BSB cannot

VampTeddy said:

No you end up with the Skink priest being the general because the BSB cannot

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I think the inverse of that argument is more valid.

"Your scar vet cannot be the BSB because he has the highest Ld and has to be the general"

If the rule stated something like: "The General is the eligible character with the highest Ld" then I'd say making a SV the BSB removed him from the General lottery, but the actual rule is:

"The General is the character in your army with the Highest Leadership."

and the BSB rule is:

"The model that carries the BSB cannot be the General"

So, it follows that if a single character has the highest Ld then that character cannot be the BSB because it must be the General.

Plenty of differing views on this here:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=121712

I for one am inclined to think that you could have a Scar Vet BSB and a Skink Priest general.


Anyway, whilst I think most of us are aware that Saurus Warriors are not the greatest of units, the judicious application of an angry Scar vet or two to each block all of a sudden makes them an awful lot more potent.

Vast swathes of Saurus Warriors stretching as far as the eye can see, each spawning led by its own Scar Vet. What's not to like?

Oh and I have run a Skink Chief on Terradon as my BSB before and he's done pretty well. Kit him out to survive and put him in (if the comp you're running allows it) or near a unit of Terradon/Rippers for LOS and keep him moving and he does surprisingly well at not dying...

On a 2000 point list you can have
Carnosaur Old Blood general
Skink Chief on Stegadon with BSB (I know there is argument whether the chief can use the bow, but until they FAQ the new book I would say the bow is the chief's weapon of choice)
Ancient stegadon
Bastiladon
And a set of 10 skink chameleons to take out the warmachines.

You use the bastiladon and trees as cover for the BSB and Ancient stegadon. As long as the ancient steg is between the general you can get the 6" for both the bastiladon and general.

The bastiladon (or 2 if you drop the chams, but I wouldn't try that) can be your cover as you race your army of monsters forward.

With 2 priests (lvl 1) you can have scroll and cube to try to dispel the really nasty stuff and hope you crash into their ranks before the monsters are gone to spells. Might not be that effective, but when it works it will look awesome.

I agree with hdctambien, and pretty much for the reasons he points out. You are making the choices and deliberately invalidating the process. You are not required to upgrade the Scarvet to a BSB. It's an option. I don't agree that we are allowed to 'force' ourselves into conflicts when the option is present to avoid it.

I elaborate on this in the thread that laribold linked to, so I won't take up space here.

On the OT, I would argue that not only is the no-Slann army fun (for both you and your surprised opponent), but it's actually better against all-comers.

As long as you use those points to help kit out 2-3 Cowboys (1+ OB's and a BSB Vet), their fighting prowess will reliably benefit the army to a great degree, and allow you to generally maneuver more aggressively (since you don't have to 'worry' about protecting the Slann from danger).

In the ~10 games I've played with a no-Slann list, I have not missed his presence. My personal opinion on spells is that as long as you have ~3 spells, all which your opponent wants to stop, you can have an effective magic phase. For me, the magic phase right now consists of:

2x Lvl 1 Skink Shamans (Beasts)
Bastiladon with Solar Engine

While it can sometimes be difficult to make the Turn 1 magic phase matter (especially if I go first), from Turn 2 onwards, the Shamans always have something that is worth Wildforming, and as long as the Bastiladon has something worth zapping, 1 spell gets through.

At the same time, the 2x Scrolls from the Shamans can help keep enemy magic phases at bay with regards to the big spells. I can generally nerf 2 magic phases, unless my opponent rolls an optimal roll (like a 3-3 or 4-4 phase) AND its in the key 1-2 turns. Even then, I can still mitigate its effectiveness to a large degree. The key here is to try really hard to hold onto the scrolls until turn 2-3 before using the first one.

In my opinion, when the Slann is removed, the army should really focus around creating the most favorable combats possible, through maneuver, matchups and use of redirectors. The build should also focus on taking some 'nails' choices, including our ability to take multi-wound causing items/choices.

I did attempt to use the Carnosaurs (generally 1 on the OB) to help increase the LD bubble for the Skinks. I found that I liked the increased bubble, but was saddened by the Carno's performance in combat. It wasn't even the Cannon 'problem' (prevalent for so many monsters in this edition), it was just that it wasn't good enough as a fighter. Dropping the Carno allowed me to take Beasts magic on the Priests (was taking Heavens to help protect the monsters), and I've enjoyed that list much more ever since.

Note that I also found that an Ancient with Sharpened Horns and the Engine of the Gods was very useful to help support the Saurus (with Spears in this case) as they took the fight to the opposing armies.

As for the General/BSB debate, isn't BSB something that you decide in list creation but General something that happens when the models hit the playing table? Thus, equipping one with a BSB means it cannot be the General, as it's a non-eligible model when you look across the battlefield for which model will be your general.

Consider armies that have equal leadership characters who might want to be generals against different types of foes (maybe sometimes you want your mounted character to lead a flanking side, or other times your wizard to lead the core that progresses more slowly). My sense is that then General is selected at the time of placement and deployment, not in writing up the list. Which means that the BSB gets designated first, and thus can have a higher leadership than the general (Black Orc Hero BSB with Night Goblin Shaman as the only other character who has to be General in a low points O&G list).


As for the larger question of Non-Slaan armies, that's the direction I'm working in for my starting force. I'm going with an Oldblood and two skink priests to start out at 1500 points, and I think that should give me reliable magic. Many other armies can field two level twos and do fine in a magic phase. I'm not convinced that the lizardmen are so limited in other areas that they "have to" have a powerful magic phase. They're hitting the field for the first time this Saturday with that approach, so I'll post a battle report here hopefully when I'm done and have an initial impression of that set-up.

Cheers.

Andrew

GreatEscape_13 said:

equipping one with a BSB means it cannot be the General, as it's a non-eligible model when you look across the battlefield for which model will be your general.

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But the rulebook doesn't say "the eligible character with the highest Ld is the General" it says "The character with the highest Ld is the General". If the character with the highest Ld is the BSB then that character must be the general and also cannot be the general, which I believe makes the list illegal.

"The General is the character in your army with the highest Ld. If more than one character share the highest Ld, you must choose which one is the General and tell your opponent before deploying your army"

That is the rule for picking your General in its entirety. There doesn't seem to be room for forcing the highest Ld character to be ineligible because you made him the BSB.

Some people bring up characters with a special rule saying something along the lines of "this character cannot be the General even if he has the highest Ld". That is an example of an Army Book rule overriding the BRB rule.

However, the BSB rule "the model that carries the battle standard cannot be the General" is a BRB rule. So by upgrading a character to the BSB you are not entering AB>BRB territory, because the BSB rule is in the BRB and Basic BRB rules don't override Basic BRB rules (both rules are on Page 107).

I see the side of the argument that reads the BSB rule to say that the model that carries the BSB becomes ineligible to be the General, but I don't see how you can read the General rule to say that only the "eligible model with the highest Ld" is the General. The word "eligible" (or any synonym) just isn't in the rule.

GreatEscape_13 said:

Consider armies that have equal leadership characters who might want to be generals against different types of foes

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If there are two or more characters that all have the highest Ld, then you choose your general before deployment.

However, if there is only one character with the highest Ld, then that character has to be your general (you don't get to choose) and the battle standard cannot be the General.

The option to choose your general is only available when you have more than one character with the highest Ld, so that rule can't be used in an army that only has one character with the highest Ld.

GreatEscape_13 said:

Black Orc Hero BSB with Night Goblin Shaman

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Fluffwise, can you see an Orc carrying a Night Goblin's "personal heraldry" into battle? Or a Saurus carrying the battle standard of a Skink?

I don't think it holds up in the rules, and it's absurd in the fluff!

GreatEscape_13 said:

I'm going with an Oldblood and two skink priests to start out at 1500 points, and I think that should give me reliable magic.

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Good luck! If you can fit in a Bastiladon you'll be looking pretty good for magic potency (you could probably even get away with dropping one of the skinks down to a Lv1) Have you decided on which lore(s) to run? I prefer Heavens to Beasts myself. Iceshard Blizzard is such a Swiss army knife of usefulness.

I'm starting to lean to Beasts over Heavens. People who have tried either, what was your decision, why and how has it worked out?