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8th Ed. Karl Franz Ascended

Mr Phat
Skink Chief

Mr Phat

9th Age Army Support
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Basically all forums have this discussion and I figured we also should:

How do you kill Karl Franz Ascended?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6pb05WJWNNI/VFEbXVde6zI/AAAAAAAAAMw/KNBBYOBAuvo/s1600/20141029_154749.jpg

Our best answer is Arcane Unforging,
undeniably (or else, feel free to enlighten me)

Pluck the chicken from his items and he drops massively.
(remember the item gets destroyed whatever the wound connects or not)

I cant really come up with anything else
as the regular "Vets and skinks" dosent quite do it here:

Chaff'ing is hard against flyers
Vets will die before doing anything.


I read this on the High Elf forum,
and actually think its the kind of tactic this guy calls for

""Is getting your opponent so drunk that he forgets that he actually has the model considered a viable tactic?

There's also the ever-popular table flip option...."


Besides Arcane Unforging and the above, how do we kill of Franz?
 
Sharpened-Horn Stegadon Spam?

It will give the Empire cannons something to shoot at ...
 
Dyvim Tvar said:
Sharpened-Horn Stegadon Spam?

It will give the Empire cannons something to shoot at ...
Click to expand...

The impact hits will be all that stand a chance of wounding him.

Drop rocks spam?

Do we have much in the way of stuff that ignores armour saves but doesn't count as magic? Do salamanders flame breath ignore armour?

Debuffing him is mandatory.

Against monstrous stuff his d3 multiwounds will destroy and against infantry the thunderstomp will do likewise. My best suggestion is a cav bus with champ and old blood with either blade of realities or piranhas blade. sacrifice the champ in a challenge then deal return damage with the old one. get either or both timewarp and speed of.light off on them to help them get hits in before he does.
 
For my orcs it is the old doom diver/rock lobber/mangler/chukka/pumpwagon/chariot spam.
And then just hope he doesn't field anything else that you need them for (read stank)

T5, 3+/4++ is not unkillable.......but those 10 wounds will take forever (and off course he will bring a life wizard).

But for lizzies....it is indeed a tougher question. Arcane unforging is indeed the obvious option.....kill the sword and the oldbloods and scarvets are back in business....kill the talisman and then skink & magic him back to where he came from.
 
Arcane unforging backed up with potion of strength phirana blade oldblood buffed by hand of glory or speed of light.
 
HM Slann + flying Heavens priest + A large block of infantry + six-dice Arcane Unforging. o.0 I like a Skrox horde for this - negates Bloodroar effectively.

Seems like Steadfast could be a serious problem for him after losing *either* of his items.

Jaguar Standard will be helpful here, but I think that careful spacing would do fine... just let him come to you. He might chaff with the spell (hits the unit, I guess??), but that seems a bit like wasting his points - he needs to be in combat to be worth it.

If the axe goes, get him in CC.

If the Talisman goes, hit him with spells (Searing Doom).

Save your characters for the rest of the army imo.
 
Perhaps a silly question......but the 3+ as mentioned in the text is that including or excluding the armor mentioned under equipment.
 
Just a tought (maybe a silly one)

What about two carnosaurs?

I mean, they have a good amount of wounds, and with the saurus on top(that would be 16 wounds if they both are oldbloods, or 14 if it is scar vets). they cannot be thunderstomped. they deal D3 wounds. have strength 7, so no armor save to Franci boy, and wounding on 2+.
with speed of light, they should be able to take some chunks off of that chicken.

but there is of course a huge danger with Empire and cannons :depressed:
 
HM Slann is necessary for Arcane Unforging

As Saurian mentioned - a cav bus would stop Thunderstomp, and save our Monsters

Take multiple Oldbloods and Scarvets in the front rank (and a couple in the second rank) so he can only kill one character at a time (saving the bus)

Decline challenges - hopefully he sends the wrong Oldblood to the back

Characters take:
Blade of Realities
Piranha Blade
Maybe a Sword of Bloodshed or Sword of Strife
Helm of Discord - for the attacks he has, this can be worthwhile if he happens to fail his leadership (twice with a BSB)
MR(2) or (3)
Featherfoe Torc to reduce his massive attacks
Pidgeon plucker for all rounder 5++ Either way, whoever attacks will probably die anyway

Slann has to swap out his spells to get Speed of Light and Timewarp then we have a better chance of killing him quicker
Even Beasts for Wyssan's

A character bus is the easiest thing for a Slann to buff
 
Warrior bane messes so hard with this guy if the enemy plans on healing him every turn.

Thunderbolt is also dangerous for him, as d6 S6 +d6 S4 hits is nothing to scoff at.

But obviously, arcane unforging should be a priority. With only 2 items, and both being as strong as they are, you are garantueed to mess him up with a succesful cast.

Without his invul, boosted searing doom will hurt a lot on this guy. 2d6 hits, wounding on 3s, no saves? An average roll will shave off 4 wounds. Though the casting number is a bit high
 
Well one, I'm a part-time Empire player so I'm rubbing my hands together expectantly.

If I ever play against this guy, I'm not too worried. That's a HUGE point cost. Even if you can't counter the Ascended KF, you should be able to outnumber and overwhelm his army. Especially if the Empire player dips into more than 25% of his total points on Lords. That's fewer STANKs, wizards, buff wagons, and battle priests to prop up the Empire's mediocre Core. I don't think I'll personally take KF in an army less than 3000 points.

But, I agree that Arcane Unforging is the best tool we have to fight him directly.
 
borkbork said:
Perhaps a silly question......but the 3+ as mentioned in the text is that including or excluding the armor mentioned under equipment.
Click to expand...

his AS is 3+ TOTAL :)

They just clarified that even though he is single profile
he is still "Plate Armor + Mounted" :)

--
Concerning the "multiple characters to his face" solution
You guys DO realize that all his hits auto-wounds,
doesn't allow armor saves
and ALWAYS do at LEAST 2 wounds?
(D3+1, means 1 attack more often than not straight out kills an oldblood)

His WS7 means he hits us on 3's
he hits first because of big initiative.
That means that using just 2 of his 10 attacks per hero you push at him
he can reliably kill it before it gets to sneeze at him?
oldbloods die as easily as scarvets here.
and you only got 2* 4++ to go around.


its NOT the way.


Scalenex said:
Well one, I'm a part-time Empire player so I'm rubbing my hands together expectantly.
Click to expand...

I'll forgive you the second you smuggle us some Runefangs!
And you BETTER be showing up in a Hurricanum!
 
Phatmotha-phucka said:
I'll forgive you the second you smuggle us some Runefangs!
And you BETTER be showing up in a Hurricanum!
Click to expand...

Hopefully they won't see through my clever disguise.



I'm starting simple. The Empire has these things called "lances". They are like spears but longer. I'm thinking these long sharp sticks can revolutionize Cold One Cavalry if only we can figure out the strange technology.
 
I'm all for combined profiles for the rider and the monster, but why do they combine the attacks and let the mounts attacks be affected by the riders magic items and skills? Or is the griffon not doing anything but flying Karl-Karl around?

Anyway, as he is an uber-hero that kills about anything with equal ease, we should try to feed him skinks, at least until you get rid of one of his magic items.
 
I should learn how to read. All this time I did not know A character could divide his attacks between units/characters

(you learn something new everyday)

Yeah that makes is a lot worse now
 
I just learned that a couple of days ago myself :P

just an update.
two friends of mine tried him of this morning.

karl Franz took out the following without breaking sweat

Malekith on Cold One
3 cold one Masters
and a pack of Warlocks.
 
Phatmotha-phucka said:
Concerning the "multiple characters to his face" solution
You guys DO realize that all his hits auto-wounds,
doesn't allow armor saves
and ALWAYS do at LEAST 2 wounds?
(D3+1, means 1 attack more often than not straight out kills an oldblood)

His WS7 means he hits us on 3's
he hits first because of big initiative.
That means that using just 2 of his 10 attacks per hero you push at him
he can reliably kill it before it gets to sneeze at him?
oldbloods die as easily as scarvets here.
and you only got 2* 4++ to go around.


its NOT the way.
Click to expand...

Fairly sure the idea was to have a character bus available AFTER destroying his magic sword. We are fully aware of how insane Runefangs are, and a Piranha+1 Runefang? You do not want characters in CC with this guy. Even WS10 and -1 to hit (Fencer+glittering) would still allow him to hit on 5s, which, with his huge amount of attacks, will still kill any character you can send his way. Hell, even debuffing him so he only hits on 6s wont do, because the chance of not getting a single hit is incredibly small, and even 1 hit is enough to destroy any saurus character we can possibly make.
 
My intention was to sacrifice the unit champion in a challenge, meaning KFA can't distribute the rest of his hits amongst your characters. The overkill wounds would go on the unit keeping the characters safe.

Then the big characters go to work hacking him apart.
 
SilverFaith said:
Fairly sure the idea was to have a character bus available AFTER destroying his magic sword.
Click to expand...


To be honest, the second he loses either of the two items he isn't really an OP problem anymore
and it opens a tons of straight forwards ways to deal with him:

The talisman pops: magic and poison him.

The Ghal Maraz essence pops: his just a regular 10 S5 attacks and can easily be taken on by a couple of scarvets..

I really don't get why discussing "after we arcane unforged him" tactics
...cause after that he goes back to be a completly regular threat that can be dealt with as anything else.


the discussion goes: how ELSE would you deal with him?

(sorry for condescending tone, im trying to state my point of view, not belittle anyone)
 
Saurian said:
My intention was to sacrifice the unit champion in a challenge, meaning KFA can't distribute the rest of his hits amongst your characters. The overkill wounds would go on the unit keeping the characters safe.

Then the big characters go to work hacking him apart.
Click to expand...


Maybe I have forgotten some of the rules, as I haven't played WHFB lately, but what good does the sacrificing the champion do? Wounds don't overflow into the unit anyway, and troops not in challenge can't intervene. In 40K the models in the unit with an ongoing challenge attack the challenger, but not in WHFB. Here, they just stand and watch. What will happen the next round?
 
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