8th Ed. Difficult HE deathstar

Here's the HE deathstar I've been having problems with. From my friend:

Annoited Blade of Leaping Gold, Glittering Scales - 305
Archmage Lv4 Beasts - 225
Prince Sword of Battle - 200
Lords = 730

Noble BSB Extra Hand Weapon - 97
Noble Extra Hand Weapon - 72
Noble Extra Hand Weapon - 72
Noble Extra Hand Weapon - 72
Noble Extra Hand Weapon - 72
Mage lv2 High Magic Dispel Scroll - 145
Mage lv 2 High Magic Mask of Terror, Ring of Furry - 170
Heroes = 700

Spearmen 50 FC Banner of Swiftness - 495
Reavers 5 - 80
Reavers 5 - 80
core = 655

SkyCutter BT - 120

Bolt Throwers 4 - 280

2485

Usually set up with the BTs in the middle then the horde on one side or the other with the skycutter. Reavers run around and make themselves annoying. Then I slam sweep the horde around and charge into the sides. People tend to hunker down in a corner so I move up and get a flank usually - cause they can't properly move about. Then smashy smash!
Casting order: Drain Magic on the Skycutter, Drain Magic on the Skycutter, then two more HM spells. I tend to throw 2 dice at the spells - since I have +3 to cast. Once I get 3 spells off I stop. Then switch to beasts.
Beasts casting when not in combat: Amber Spear or Curse of Anaheir
Beasts in combat - 5 dice to Savage
So output of attacks: 62 attacks at Str 7, then 30 at str 3

As I said, this is a little inefficient. My current build is:
Annoited Blade of Leaping Gold, Glittering Scales - 305
Archmage Lv4, Talisman of Endurance (5++) Beasts - 255
Archamge Lv4 High, Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Pres (4++) - 320
Lords = 880

Mage Lv2 High Magic, Dispel Scroll, Mask of Terror - 170
Noble, Xtra HW, Armour of Fortune (5++) - 107
Noble, Bsb, Armour of Destiny (4++) Xtra HW - 147


Spearmen 50 FC Banner of Swiftness - 495
Reavers 5 - 80
Reavers 5 - 80
core = 655

SkyCutter BT - 120
SkyCutter BT - 120
Bolt Throwers 4 - 280

2479

This one I only need 2 spells to get 3++ and even 1 gives me 3 people in the front with 3++ and two with 4++ which lets me do a full wall of characters and wards. The skycutters go in with the column and provide impact hits. My overall attacks are less but I can more reliably get them all (10 wide you tend to have 2 or 3 characters hanging out cheering the others on.) I auto break steadfast and I can run people down. Haven't run this one yet but am going to at Chop this month. See how it goes. Might trade out the BSB to be a Seahelm to let me reform if I get flanked.

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And here's what he says about the Old Blood:

I usually trickle cast the HM spells then throw 4 dice at Savage. however, if he blocked me with 1 old blood I would challenge with the Annointed and neuter him (-1 to hit, 6 attacks ignoring armour on 6s to wound - this is without Savage) then run him down with combat res (+5 static then any I get in the challenge).

the old blood would have 5 attacks hitting on 5s ( 1.66667 hits) wounding on 2s (1.3888 wounds). I assume no armour on my guy. But 3++ - re-roll successful from OTS would be approx (0.9258 wounds to me.)

I have 6 attacks on 4s re-rolling (4.5 hits) wounding on 5s, with sixes ignoring his armour ( 0.75 wounds normal + 0.75 wounds ignoring armour) he saves 2+ I assume so 0.75 + 0.125 or 0.875 wounds - if he has a ward save he washes me out but I still win by 4

he is taking break on 5 maybe with a re-roll depending.

still - odds are ever in my favour....



If I get savage then I nuke him.

9 attacks (6.75 hits) wounding on 2s (1.125 wounds with no armour and 4.5 wounds with armour) 1+ armour goes to 5+ ( 1.125 + 1.5 wounds) - so approx 2.625 wounds
I now win by 6



Although the 10 char unit is actually less efficient than 5 in the front with 10 ranks of 5 spears - French Imperial Column style - crash in an negate all steadfast and run people down!

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Pretty much seems to come down to getting Dwellers and Final Transmutation off. As soon as any unit gets near this thing it seems to go poof.

Arh, okay. That's a completley different setup than "10 nobles with additional hand weapons".

The reason it now goes some "safe" to "risky" is because of the annointed. The issue obviously being the glittering scales reducing our To Hit chances from 4 to 5 and the sword giving him more attacks with reroll To Hit and ingoring armour on a 4+.Combined with having a natural 4+ ward due to a special rule the annointed just becomes an annoyance. The issue here is that our OB will still likely win, but at what cost? Your friend said it so himself - rerolling a Ld5 is a risky proposition regardless of cold blooded.

It's a nasy setup.

Anyway his math is though:

First of all the Prince hits on 4+. This will generate roughly 5,3 hits and 0.85 "ignore armour save". Let's just stick with that because his S4 attacks will then proceed to wound on 5+ and we have a rerollable 2+ with 4+ ward. Because of our ward that 0,85 ignore armour save wound will be reduced to the half so 0,425. Less than half a chance to wound.

Now our oldblood doesn't just have 5 attacks. He have 5 attacks with Predatory Fighter giving him 84% chance of gaining a 6th attack. Even then we should still have a chance of actually wounding him just once.

SO it's still basically the same just minor differences (good things forgotten by both sides).

Let's assume we get the charge (we are a cavalry unit after all) - we pop one wound and have a charge. We lose by 3, but our Slann with Ld10 BSB is nearby so reroll Ld7 with CB should mean that we'll be fine for that round.

Again our biggest issue here is that we cannot generate enough combat resolution.

Now on to magic - 2 x lvl 4 mages? Well sure, but he's still assuming that we don't have a nearby slann. "imma just gonna do this and that and puff..". I mean.. sure if he roll well in his magic phase then yes, but assuming he rolls the average which is 7 he doesn't have much to do. We can can, on average, generate on more power dice due to disciplines, have a scroll, can bring two and reroll 1 failed dispel attempt every magic phase.

Besides he's assuming that we don't get off any spells himself. Either you ignore magic completely or you assume both sides can get off spells. So what would I suggest? Either go with high magic and try and nuke his "ignore armour save sword" or go with wandering deliberation. With WD we have a battery of low casting value spells we want to get off:

Iceshard blizzard for -1 To Hit.
Miasma which is essentially -1 To Hit and on average should roll a 2 meaning that we'll wound on 4+/5+ (and not 5, or 6+).

We could likely also go a different route.

Anyway he's assuming that we only bring 1 x filth. Take a Scar Vet with the Stegadon helmet and Luck stone and light armour and halbard. See if you can get off a flank charge and position your OB from the front so that he's in base contact with as many characters as possible. IF and only IF you can do this you have T6 and S5 impact hits. You'll generate enough combat res and the only threat is the annointed. They'll hit on 4, wound on 6+ and you have a one-time rerollable 1+/2+ save on the scar vet. Alternatively feed the annointed with a 4+ ward scar vet and let him have it. The result should be the same as with the OB really (42% chance to wound once with the sword).

Pinktaco said:

Now on to magic - 2 x lvl 4 mages?

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1x lvl 4 & 2x Lvl 2 High magic. .....with your Slann you are allready 2 points up on the dispell vs the high magic spells.
So, you are absolutely right that he makes it sound way too easy to get those spells off. And he is also not taking into account you may have a buff or hex up as well. Also he needs to be a bit carefull with magic as a miscast can be really painfull.

Pinktaco said:

Anyway he's assuming that we only bring 1 x filth

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indeed.....if you combo charge with two/three cowboys that will mean a lot of dead elf characters.

And finally......sword of anti heroes, would be funny as hell against this list.

I just walked the dog while thinking some more to this.

He's bringing plenty of filth and I'm assuming this is his all-comers list. Maintaining an all-comers list I came up with the following:

Slann with 3 channel dice at 5 and channel staff, reroll failed dispel and store dispel dice to power dice. BSB and skavenpelt banner. Ironcourse Ikon against artillery. Oh and Wandering Deliberation.

Oldblood, GW, CO, dawnstone, armour of Destiny and trickster shard.

Tetto'Eko

Maybe a second scar vet if you're up for it. 4+ ward talisman, CO, light armour, shield, sword (maybe magic sword in case of etherals due to all-comers list).

Core and special the way you feel like however, bring 30 templeguards.

Plop all characters except tetto'eko into the templeguard unit. Your OB is now stubborn at Ld9 CB. Put the Templeguards in a horde formation due to being stubborn anyway and having the skavenpelt banner. with 2 characters in the front and a champ you'll have 29 attacks (including PF) from your templeguards from the front and an additional 14 attacks from the second and third rank.

Here's what you do. Assume your opponent puts his characters into his unit before you. Now counter his positioning with your characters. You'll want to assassinate as many of them as possible before he gets off savage beast. DO NOT PUT THE OB AT BASE TO BASE CONTACT WITH ANY OF YOUR OTHER CHARACTERS, lol.

So here's some math for you:

2 of our models can strike at one of theirs: 6 attacks from front ~ 7 attacks + 4 additional attacks = 11. That's 2,32 wound ASSUMING a 4+ ward save. That's from 6 of our templeguards only. Positioning of our character within the templeguard unit is crucial.

Here's what the banner does to our character: OB is now sitting at 7 attacks due to PF and frenzy. SV is like a mini vanilla OB sitting at 5,84, again including PF.

Us the OB to counter his annointed. We don't care too much because now we don't fear combat res. Use the scar vet (if you brought one) to remove a mage on cooperation with you templeguards. A champion will do 1 wound on a 4+ ward character so let the front model be a champ along the SV. 0,84 wounds from 4 supporting guards. 1,62 from the SV. You'll likely hit 3 wounds if assuming 4+ ward and not 3.

Your goal is to not care about any spearmen, but removing as many characters as possible. You can do this in two way: remove the mages at all cost. No mages = no spells OR remove the nobles. I'm assuming his mages are in the front? Nobles have fewer wounds and are thus easier to remove and no Nobels = nobody to cast any meaning full spells on.

Now a quick thing about the spearmen.They're WS4, rerolling To Hit against templeguards and S3. They have 4 supporting ranks hitting us = a total of 5 wounds.

Oh and the Beast mage is the most important mage of the two. Him gaining a better ward isn't too much of an issue if he cannot get savage beast off. The beast mage is sitting at WS4, T3 and 5+ ward. You can easily remove him.

AGAIN I'd like to point out one thing. He's so very much relying on magic. None of the above in this post rely on magic. Our models will swing like this regardless and it'll improve drastically with magic. Is Savage Beast a horror story if it goes off? Sure, but just make sure he don't. You can still risk him getting one high magic spell off beause my math is assuming 4+ ward and his beast mage is 5+. IMO the beast mage is the most important mage.


Now his trick is to trickle trick your dice out of you. Do the same to him. WD + Tetto'Eko is sick since you can safely 2-dice most spells and some spells you can 1-dice with you slann.Priority spells in the following order:

Miasma for average -2 WS (guards hitting at 3+ vs mages).
Augment from heaven that'll allow you to reroll all 1s.
Iceshard blizzard for -1 Ld and To Hit (you now have 2 of these).
Hex from heaven that'll force him to reroll 6s (no more sword of ignore armour trolol).
Earthblood for 5+ regen against spearmen and gaining a wound back on character.
Wyssan's Wildform for T5 meaning their spearmen wounds on 6+ and characters on 5+.

If I'm not mistakening most of these spells are very low cast spells. If you really want to force them through pick the Book of Ashur. Remember that Tetto'Eko makes your Slann very powerful since you don't fear getting broken concentration with 2 dice.

Arcmage is a Ld9 character. See if you can remove just a single wound with spirit leach, but not a priority spells IMO.

Use heaven damage spells such as urranus thunderbolt and chainlightning on chariots. They're flying so they'll take an addiitonal D6 S4 attacks.
Both spellls are S5-6. I actually believe they're S6. Heaven spells have a fairly long range and low casting value.

So either brute force hexes and augment off with 2 dice. That'll be an average of 3-4 WD spells. Or use Tetto'Eko to wound chariots or use Tetto's hexes/augments. Prioritice augment/hexes that'll make our templeguards put in more wounds.

Use terradons for his bolt thrower or cameleon skinks. I'm not sure if he can actually cover his entire deployment zone.

Now all of this is just theory. The most important part is outplaying your opponent and if he's vastly better than you you'll have to accept and account for that. WIth that said and assuming I haven't misunderstood anything I'd say you should have a good shot.

Remember that the TG block is stubborn. This is why you can allow yourself to not care about about ranks. It's obvious that this is one of his main goals. He'll have plenty of attacks and plenty of ranks. Remove as many of his benefits as possible.

I wouldn't say my proposal is a hard counter. It's something I'd take regardless of the match-up with the only exception of maybe the banner (but I've been thinking about it) and the second scar vet. The entire list can be fit to your pleasure with the exception of the characters and the TG block. You can fill core with skinks and flush out his reavers and chariots.


Do keep in mind I haven't been up against this list, but I'd like to try and play it =)

Well, some very good advice has already been given, but what do you think of just going mass salamander at them? 2x3, even if you lose a lot of them and they have their wardsave, that are massive ammounts of saves to be rolles. I do not really think any unit combination that we have beats this, Horros hits us to hard for that. It is really a beastly combo, TBH, but maybe the best way to win against it is outrun it, they are still movement 6 infantry and you can mop up the bolt throwers and the reavers to get something like a minor victory. If i would meet this in a tourney while i have sortoff an all comers list, i think that is what i would try.

borkbork said:

And finally......sword of anti heroes, would be funny as hell against this list.

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NICE!

it's true the sword of anti heroes would be decent, but doesn't it only generate additional attacks and strenght based on enemy characters in base contract with the wielder? Wouldn't that only allow for +2A/S? Also should he bring t he banner of derp dragon it doesn't matter. However, sword of anti heroes + frenzy banner and PF would in theory generate 9,26 S7 attacks - in other words every 4th combat phase we'd be looking at 10 attacks^^

Anyway I'm not particula fan of the sword. I can see the use, but it's quite sitational really. In an all-comers list I wouldn't take it.

Pinktaco said:

but doesn't it only generate additional attacks and strenght based on enemy characters in base contract with the wielder?

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"every enemy character in base contact with him or his unit"

Pinktaco said:

Also should he bring t he banner of derp dragon it doesn't matter.

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That's what Arcane Unforging is for!

you know.. arcane unforging should be fairly reliable once it's off. If you only have one items it's basically a 2+ to remove. For whatever reason the dice hates me when I try to do it xD

Pinktaco said:

you know.. arcane unforging should be fairly reliable once it's off. If you only have one items it's basically a 2+ to remove. For whatever reason the dice hates me when I try to do it xD

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I think it is an amazing spell. There are quite a few armies that have a devastating magic item or two (WoC, HE, Ogres, etc.). It's one of the reasons why I always take Focus of Mystery over WD.

Had my buddy take a look.

He forgets about Drain Magic. Sure, get all those debuffs on me. whoopie-do. Drain magic. If that doesn't work, drain magic. The casting order would reverse then and I would trickle cast other stuff to ensure the drain - and you have to save dice to try and stop the drains which means I get other things off easier - like savage - like curse - like wildform.

So now, my block goes monster/terradon hunting while my BTs blow the ever living crap out of that TG unit. The reavers keep it pinned and the sky cutters run to the sides and fire into it.

It might beat me - but I doubt it.

He is right. My list does rely on magic. But I distribute the probabilities enough that it becomes fairly reliable.

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He also beat the other top player at the local club this past weekend. The other guy was using WoC. My buddy seemed to get a little lucky with the DP taking a few wounds then removing itself with a miscast. I'm not sure how filthy the list was, more expert opinions than mine can chime in:

DP L4 Tzeench
18 Warrirors
Lord on D Steed with GW, 3++ rerolling 1s and Stubborn crown
BSB on D Steed 4++

2 chimeras
2 Chaos Chariots
1 Shaggoth with GW
6 Slanesshi fast cav

pretty standard table list
other than the shaggoth

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are you playing with the Khaine End Time magic rules?

Pinktaco said:

are you playing with the Khaine End Time magic rules?

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Nope. We did once back when it first released but that was the last time my buddy and I played WFB. He plays monthly at a gaming club where Khaine Magic and the Elf lists are banned. I believe they are going Swedish Comp which is why he stopped playing this list with Alith Anar. Khaine would maybe make things easier due to being able to spam cast Final and Dwellers with the EotG.

BTW the feedback has been good. Despite withdrawing from WFB I do still think about how to beat this beast. I've already thought about a lot of these suggestions and a lot of his opponents have tried them but no one has succeeded yet. I'd been toying with the idea of OB on Carno in flank and Defensive OB Cowboy in front to try and pin the characters but the weight of bolt thrower fire is a little tough to take.

I'm just confused about this comment:

"Drain magic. If that doesn't work, drain magic"

Anyway as I stated previously the list comes off as extremely boring and obnoxious, but that's just my opinion. It doesn't make it any less effective and in highly competitive environment it's not about having "fun", but about winning..

Your friends comes off as quite sure in his game. Nothing I mentioned was considered good enough according to his respons. I might not have been better off myself, but his respons comes off as what I suggested to never have a chance. It's as if the magic we can field cannot hurt him. Remove the block and artillery and he litteraly only have 4 other squishy units. A single strike of any magic we can field will severely cripple those units. Bolt throwers at S4 AP will do an average of 2,7 wounds at long range and 4 wounds on short each turn on TGs. That's hardly shooting the living hell out of it - unless there's a rule I've misunderstood.

I'd love to play such a list just to try it out. It intrugies me ^^ Not that I'm a super good player at all I'm just having a hard time understanding certain of these things until tried IRL. Oh well, I got nothing more to say really. I gave you a decent answer and he shot it down (hurr durr).

How has no one suggested the obvious way to trash the list? Double slann life and metal and watch him cry as you cast dwellers and final trans while double fleeing his block. you can easily fit 30 camo skinks to lift the rbts, a pair of salamanders and at least 2 vets and 90 core shots to mop up. With double scroll, reroll to dispel and book of ashur you can stop everything bar the drain magics which no one cares about.

that's tailoring to fight him. The HE list can take on any armies so coming up with an all-comers list would IMO be more ideal

Pretty much what Pink Taco said. He can take all comers and it's best if we build for all comers (assuming that he is just another opponent in a tournament where we also face WoC, Empire, etc). Also I did mention in the OP that Final and Dwellers seems to be the way to go.

Pink Taco: yes it is boring as hell. He actually gets a bit of flak at the club for playing it. No one disallows it but it is considered rather silly. Also my friend comes off quite sure of his game because he has faced all your suggestions before and it hasn't slowed him down at all. This thing is a freaking buzz saw.

Hence the original comment that sparked the thread "if HE wastes points taking a Frost Chicken then count your blessings because they lose points that could be spent on this."

But .. okay fair enough - I get your point, however, I have a different point of view. A lot of people look at something and then they go "this is the best option so the rest isn't good enough". This is why some people can look at warriors of chaos warriors and not consider them the best option despite them being the best infantry in the game. This is why the Varghulf isn't the most favored choice between it and the Terrorgheist. Despite the fact that the ghulf having Hatred, WS5, T5 and regen 4+ and a good price tag.

So my point is that yes what your friend uses is the obvious superior answer, but the frost phoenix is a really really good monster. It's silly good for what you pay for it. It basically have elite stats all over along with fly, ward save and 2 x hexes (ASL AND -1S). It's just downright silly when you think about it.

Should I consider myself fortunate that people bring frost phoenix and white lions? Maybe, but both options are incredible good for what you pay for and non of them are in any way, shape or form "bad" because there's a superior alternative. Especially white lions are ridiculous considering their price.

But that's just my opinion. I wouldn't rather always face the above mentioned death star, but there's no denying that HE can field a lot of filth

The list I recommended is a standard all comers skink cloud list with double slann not something I would tailor to beat this. Hell just chucking death snipes at the list and avoiding the block for six turns should get an easy win. That list will only win if someone throws a big unit into the spearbus, its a deathstar like any other and not even a great one(Old 3++ chaos knight bus was way worse) treat it as such.

Slann life powerscroll, bsb, general
Slann metal, book of ashur, becalming
skink priest scroll
skink priest cube

600 core
3x3 terradons
2x 10 camos
1x 9 camos
2x1 Sallies
2397
maybe drop a salamander for a scar vet with the extra 100 points?

Do you consider double slann + all skinks with no cowboys standard in the current army book?