Discussion Discussion - ownership, theft, bribery, gambling

So there was this horse race today, and I was thinking "what would lizardmen bet with?" which led to the questions "what has material value to LM?", "do they individually own anything?" and "Why did my stupid horse not even finish the stupid race?"

We could safely say that a lizardman is in possession of the armour strapped to his body and the weapon in his claw. Would he give them to another?

Would they keep other articles in a private place, like @Tlac'Natai the Observer's cubby?

Would another lizard ever steal my shiny eggshell? (A bit of insecurity leaking out there.)

Can items / favours be bought?

I don't know how ownership might work in LM society, but I do know it makes no sense at all in Skaven society. in skaven stories I've read, Rats can acquire valuable items or warptokens. Where do they keep them? In the Skavenblight Prudential Bank? On their person at all times (which is asking for someone to creatively redistribute your wealth AND your internal organs)? My favourite is "hidden in a secret niche back in the overpopulated nest" How do you hide warp-snuff from a Skaven exactly?

Discuss.


WARNING - even if we agree that LM do not individually own anything, do not attempt to remove a plaque of the Old Ones from a temple city.

Yes! my skinks have cubbies next to their beds! The desert LM that I've been developing have a culture that is completely cutoff from Lustria and Southlands, so things like possession might be treated differently. In my head, I thought of the cubbies as a place to put their artisan tools. Sure it's their tools and no one would grab them because they don't recognize them, but I don't think they have any notion of legal possession. There is bartering trade in the desert city, but mostly just one artisan to another exchanging items that each other needs. Skinks exhibit individualism in that one might like to sleep on 3 mats, another might like to sleep on none. One skink might like to eat hot grubs, another likes to eat cold grubs. The point here is that they all have slightly different needs and wants and they will do what they can to attain their own level of comfort within the city. Now the question is whether jealousy peeks through as an emotion they don't know they have, "Why does that skink have so many things? They are using more than one cubby!?!"

I think of the LM society as very socialist; if someone stole tools or they just got dropped down a well, they would go to the Tool Artisan and put in an order which might be done within a week, and then that little skink can go about working on clay pots again.

Art, as with humans, is anything that is aesthetically pleasing to the eye. Would a skink want to have that kind of positivity in their life? Uh, YEAH. These are the most emotional of the LM, and not built for the constant stresses of war. Having a figurine or picture that invokes strength and courage might be something that gets them through an entire campaign without PTSD. I see skinks huddled around a fire at night sharing their pieces of art, passing them around and telling the stories about them.

Like you said, weapons and armor are also possessions of each individual, but would it ever cross their mind to trade or gamble with them? I don't think so. I imagine that in their minds, letting go of a weapon is not an option on the list of things to do with a weapon; except to put it in their cubby, that is.

Lastly, anything of value that LM run across while out in the field would probably be run straight to the priests or slann because they don't know what to do with it. "Hey, boss, we found this stone that gently gives off a large aura of heat and safe to the touch, I don't know what the implications might be but uhhhh, here you go!"

I think that the concept of ownership would vary by the different groups.

Saurus probably don't have much in the way of personal belongings, just their weapons and armor, and the golden trinkets that some wear (crest plates, bracelets, etc.) However, I would imagine that they might take trophies from powerful things they have slain. Kroq'Gar, for example, took the head of Vashnar the tormenter after killing him. I imagine thet they would keep their stuff in their unit's cave beneath the temple-city.
Krox would not have much either, but over time might amass more 'wealth' than saurus. They would likely also take war-trophies, and have the gold jewelry/ornamentation as saurus do. In addition, I think that they might keep interesting things that they find around the temple-cities and in the jungles, such as shiney rocks and shards of pottery. They would probably keep this stuff either in/near the pools that Krox chill in when they aren't building things or killing other things.
Skinks would have the most personal belongings, being the most 'human like' of the Lizardmen. Artisans would likely have small mementos they made for themselves in their spare time (statues, jewelry, etc), hunters would have trinkets taken from notable kills (A feather, a scale, or a fang), and warriors would take war-trophies (though probably small things, like a dagger or piece of armor). They would likely Keep them in their bunkhouses, on, under or near their assigned sleeping space.

I doubt that a saurus would ever willingly give up his weapons/armor, even to another member of his spawning, unless it was a direct order from a slann or a high-ranking saurus. Krox weapons are chained to their arms, and given back to the skinks after battle, so they likely don't hold much value to them. Skinks i think would be willing to share weapons that had helped them before in battle to close friends in order to help them through the battle if necessary, or if they were not to be involved in combat that day ("I once killed a giant with this javelin. The old ones blessed my arm that day. Hopefully it will bring their favour to you, my friend.")

As for your shiny eggshell Bob, that is a sacred article which belongs definitively to you. The slann have promised swift and painful retribution on any who touch it but you. It's safe. (At least from fellow lizards. You never know about warmbloods)

Thanks, Kor-Lot-Ko. That's a relief.

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/defectors-to-the-lizardmen.14775/

Marco Colombo was a mercenary captain that set out to Lustria with the plan of trading with the Lizardmen. He offered up live Skaven prisoners and purchased LUstrian artifacts as a peace offering and then used his ships to fend off raiders and recover treasure in exchange for spices and pearls (the latter of which the Skinks thought were nigh worthless and were all to willing to give over). The Lizardmen Colombo talked to had a Skink who could speak Brettonian. I used that as a model in my fluff pieces. The Lizardmen don't have a lot of multi-lingual people but in mhy pieces their archives maintain records of what they do know and they make sure at least one scribe per generation can speak all the Prodigals languages.

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I don't know about durable items. But even if food is plentiful, some things taste better. The rarest edible plants, the choicest cuts of meat. I see Lizardmen having a very stratified society. I imagine certain food is just for the Slann. Certain food is just for the Skink Priest, certain food just for the Skink Chiefs, etc and it's a major faux paus if not a minor crime to steal food "above your station." Food status would be a little fluid. There might be a tasty food item that is rare for most of the year and abundant for seasonally. This could even lead to Feast Days where lowly Skinks and Sauri can eat above their station.

I mean Lizardmen don't have childhoods and they don't they have courtship or mating, but we at least give them human-like food celebrations. In may ways sharing a meal is one of the most basic and important social activities.

I would imagine caste stratification and the quality of food would transfer over to things. The higher ranking Lizardmen get the best armor, jewelry, feathers, tools, weapons, etc. It just seems natural. Another thing what if a valued item falls into the hands of a group of equals. They might make it a trophy to pass around. "Hylek killed the most Skaven of anyone yesterday, he gets to wear the Helmet of Valour!" "Not for long, next battle I'll be wearing it!" Likewise a group of relative equals that gets a hold of food of mixed quality could give the winner of the last contest (who killed the most Skaven, who hauled the most bricks, who made the best vase) would get first dibs on the chow.

Go outside the jungle and food becomes less plentiful (at least as far as the Lizardmen know). In that case theft of another's food isn't just rude, it's a crime. Ditto for theft of water in a desert setting like @Tlac'Natai the Observer's setting. In such a setting though, sharing food and water would be a high degree of camaraderie. Also, they have cubbies and they have means of storing things. So the desert Lizardmen would be slightly more materialistic than jungle Lizardmen. Just guessing.

Would Lizardmen like sporting events? I'd say yes. Contest of physical strength, mock combat, real combat, or animal fights would probably be well received. Not that they'd pit animals against each other just to watch one die, that's behavior of the warmblooded savages. But the young Carnosaur needs to practice her hunting skills and that large bear would be a worthy challenge....

Kor-Lot-Ko said:

Kroq'Gar, for example, took the head of Vashnar the tormenter after killing him. I imagine thet they would keep their stuff in their unit's cave beneath the temple-city.

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I like this. The cohort or spawning might communally own some stuff which affirms their baddassery. Other cohorts might be jealous, or the idea of a fraternity house joke might be sneak in and decorate the daemon skull with a garland of flowers. Theft of an article would just about start a civil war because the article would be inextricably linked to the identity of the spawning.

As a tangent: The number of spawn kin can ever go down. The longest livers would hold the memories of the lost in greater and greater honour. When the spawning is down to numbers too low for combat effectiveness, the honour of the past is all that the survivors would cling to for identity. @Essmir 's chameleon in Around the Fire is what brings this to mind.

Back to items of value:
Scalenex's Locklirist of the Hated Lash had a problem. He needed to buy the assistance of a powerful khornate daemon. The solution was "It would take some time and a large portion of his accumulated skull trophies to summon Kalai, the Dervish of Despair."

Yay! Skull tokens! I think that all harvested skulls belong to Khorne, and he bestows favour according to the number each of his minions collects. Therefore, the trade is really for godly favours.

Which is fine if you have a benevolent god like Khorne. If you serve a slann, your status is never going to get above "useful tool".

I like the idea that possession is communal, even if it is just small groups within a single city. There's always a bigger picture for the lizardmen, being a part of something like a spawning gives them purpose, to help a brother is equally as important as helping themselves. This dynamic may be lost with a special singular spawning. Single spawnings might fit in well with the rest but they might fill their brotherly void with more possessions that they don't necessarily share, and attach a high meaning to the items.

Yeah that kind of thing. And "rival" spawnings could be pretty brutal towards each other.

Let's see which of us can use the line, "water is thicker than blood" first.



Items of value. Here on the forum it is not unusual for someone to "bet my last ixti grub" on something, and there is Scalenex's expression, "small grubs" meaning "small potatoes" or "of little consequence"

My all time favorite thing to be traded and bet was from @Madrck in his story, Hey bill!. It was time spent on the "sun rock at the oasis".

"Bill looks up from his bottle that's already half gone "If we live I'll bet 2days on the rock that it's a rock wurm nest"
"Don't be stupid" Wilson mocks "They have been extinct since Clan Pestilence corrupted the west coast temples"
Bill laughed "Your right I'll bet a week"
"If your right both of us are dead anyway, Why not bet a year"
"Done, a year on the rock""

I love it. It has value, is worth competing for, but there is no real consequence to losing it. The perfect currency.

spawning of Bob said:

Back to items of value:
Scalenex's Locklirist of the Hated Lash had a problem. He needed to buy the assistance of a powerful khornate daemon. The solution was "It would take some time and a large portion of his accumulated skull trophies to summon Kalai, the Dervish of Despair."

Yay! Skull tokens! I think that all harvested skulls belong to Khorne, and he bestows favour according to the number each of his minions collects. Therefore, the trade is really for godly favours.

Which is fine if you have a benevolent god like Khorne. If you serve a slann, your status is never going to get above "useful tool".

Click to expand...

Thanks for the story plug! And for plugging the other writer's stories. There is enough wealth of literature on L-O that we don't want relative newcomers to the fluff forum to miss anything.

I don't know if he's benevolent, but the way I see it he has little patience for duplicity. I can picture Slaanesh and Tzeentch keeping their minions in a complicated web where they can't tell who is favored and who is not. Nurgle probably says he loves all his children which makes his favor meaningless. I imagine most Khornites know exactly where they stand with Khorne.

"I want skulls and blood. Give me skulls and blood and I will show you favor."

Granted it's possible for a Daemon to fall so far from Khorne's favor that no bribery of skulls would be sufficient (Skarbrand) but those permanently in the disfavor of Khorne don't have to guess that they are out of favor. They know.

Maybe it's my Economics and Accounting degree but I liked the idea of Daemons using skulls as currency. I wanted to add some dynamics to the usual Deamonic negotiating tactics, 1) offer vague unfillable promises or 2) threaten to beat in their face if they don't help you. I imagine all the Daemons have items of value they can trade, but skulls would be the go-to currency of Khorne. The question is would a skull taken by a non-Khornite be of any value? Meh, if ever write another major Daemon Lord villain protagonist I'll consider it. But I doubt I'll need it. The four named greater Daemons in the Scalenex-verse, Locklirist of the Hated Lash is the only one that's not imprisoned or discorporated.

Of all the WHF races, the only three that wouldn't definitely have currency would be the Beastmen, Lizardmen, and Daemons of Chaos. The only race that would have trouble understanding the idea of currency would be Lizardmen. Beastmen and Daemons of Chaos have lots of ex-humans in their ranks and Slaanesh practically invented avarice.