Skink Chief
ILKAIN
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well then I will join you in being all "WTF GW"
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AoS NEW *rumor*
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Skink Chief
ILKAIN
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I was a patriots fan in the 80's and 90's.... ill stick with my dinos even if they do suck more lol
Ripperdactyl
samheim
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OldBlood
Erta Wanderer
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yup it's a very powerful ability and the only reason we win we can't break thru people so it's a good thing we can jump them
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OldBlood
Erta Wanderer
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thats fair but im already frustrated after waiting a year and a half i don't think i could wait another 5 years
Skink Chief
ILKAIN
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no... that individual is a petulant child with no understand of the fact that all he did was generate MORE money for GW.... if they bring back WFB hes gonna have to buy all new ones.... also how could someone do that when they have the NICE cold one models, compared to ours lol also lets be honest, most of that stuff was unpainted... he couldn't have loved it as much as he said he did lol
OldBlood
Erta Wanderer
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agreed there are much better ways to deal with disappointment like the grand hobby of complaining im going for the grand tital but those gray knights players are going to be tuff
Slann
Killer Angel
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Slann
Canas
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Put the text you want to quote like this: {QUOTE="Name of person"} A super interesting quote {/QUOTE} replace the curly brackets with square ones.
Some of our spells are definitly redundant. We got like 5 different mechanics to re-roll hits of 1 and at least 2 different ones to give a random unit flying. Several -1 to bravery mechanics (though at least that stacks with the spell). All of these have now also become spells.
We have the advantage that the 2 mechanics that do actually work are inherently super powerfull and easy to abuse if they're tuned to be halfway decent. Movement-abilities are always going to be powerfull, no matter how crap the stuff you move around is. Similarly, summoning reinforcements is always going to be usefull no matter how useless the reinforcements are. If nothing else we can just bury an enemy under useless fodder. And since ultimatly you win games by scoring points, not by killing stuff, having a lot of fodder on the table that can move with relative ease is still sorta effective.
Salamander
Jason839
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I just want our spells to be unique and fluffy. Too many factions have spells that are copies of others. If I was making a spell lore for the “lords of space and time” it would be like this:
Slann buff: all slanns are loremasters and know all faction spells in addition to ghb spells.
Casting value 8+: pick a friendly faction unit. The Magic’s of time accelerate that unit. Until your next hero phase that unit gets +1 to hit +1 to wound and always strikes first.
Casting value 7+: pick a friendly unit. Time is reversed around the unit undoing all damage done to the unit on the previous turn.
Casting value 8+: pick an enemy unit in line of sight. A magical portal envelops that unit and It is sent to the aetherrealm. Remove it from the table. At the end of each battle round role a d6 dice, on a 4+ the unit remains in the aether. If the role is under 4+ that unit is returned to the table in the opponents deployment zone. If a unit is in the aetherrealm at the end of the game it is considered slain.
Casting value 5+: pick a friendly unit, that unit gains fly and it’s movement is doubled.
Casting value 7+: select a friendly wizard. all casts and unbind attempts in future turns gain +2 to cast and unbind.
Casting value 8+: select an enemy unit. The Magic’s of space and time fundamentally change the very nature of that unit. That unit loses all abilities printed on its warscroll.
Slann buff: all slanns are loremasters and know all faction spells in addition to ghb spells.
Casting value 8+: pick a friendly faction unit. The Magic’s of time accelerate that unit. Until your next hero phase that unit gets +1 to hit +1 to wound and always strikes first.
Casting value 7+: pick a friendly unit. Time is reversed around the unit undoing all damage done to the unit on the previous turn.
Casting value 8+: pick an enemy unit in line of sight. A magical portal envelops that unit and It is sent to the aetherrealm. Remove it from the table. At the end of each battle round role a d6 dice, on a 4+ the unit remains in the aether. If the role is under 4+ that unit is returned to the table in the opponents deployment zone. If a unit is in the aetherrealm at the end of the game it is considered slain.
Casting value 5+: pick a friendly unit, that unit gains fly and it’s movement is doubled.
Casting value 7+: select a friendly wizard. all casts and unbind attempts in future turns gain +2 to cast and unbind.
Casting value 8+: select an enemy unit. The Magic’s of space and time fundamentally change the very nature of that unit. That unit loses all abilities printed on its warscroll.
OldBlood
Erta Wanderer
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wow these are .... broken really cool ideas but this is a bit to far in the other direction lets see if we can tone some of these down.
i like the ideas behind these where where you when i was re-writing our stuff?
this is good love it
oh +1 to any of the 3 core stats (hit wound save) are very good spells same with the reverse and fight first is what makes slanesh and grislegore broken droping the +1s and making the CV 7 would still make it seem like time manipulation and leave it at very good
if you limit this to behemothes it would be strong but being able to bring back 32 dead models is to much
have it remove them from the feild until the end of there battle shock phase no dice roll taking a maw crusher off the board for potentially the entire game isn't fun or fair
so a 24" moveing flying carno on a 5 to cast how about just +4" that way he moves like a VLoZD without being faster then everything else in the game
this is good but make it so you cant move or teleport on the turn you use it like sylvaneth
phhhh this has some weird side afects you could cast it on croak and it would ether kill him or make him imortal depending on how you make that call i would put somthing this good at a 9+ CV at least
i like the ideas behind these where where you when i was re-writing our stuff?
Salamander
Jason839
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Lol Yeah they are a little broken. they were just examples of the kinds of effects I would like to see. I do feel like our spells should be pushed to the limit. It fits fluff wise and with our summoning mechanic based around NOT casting spells I feel it would give players unique tactical choices in the mid to late game.
Probably on my 2 year AOS hiatus.i like the ideas behind these where where you when i was re-writing our stuff?
Carnasaur
Nart
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What I really hate about our lore is not that it is exactly copies things we have already but it copies things that we really don't need a copy of. It simply doesn't give us new interesting ideas, ways of play and combinations.
Let's take a look at them. If apotheosis restored d3 wounds and/or returned models, it could make monster-heavy and infantry builds way more interesting. It could bring Carnosaurs several brackets up on damage table. Or save bastiladon with 1 wound, if rolled high enough. Return models to temple guard/skinks/hunting packs. Well, now it can bring Carnosaur one braket up, but not always. With d3 one would at least always had a chance. It can save from a unit from being slain, but most likely not - there are enough 2 damage weapons around. And -1 bravery in a world of auto-passing morale is just useless (look at you, Cities of Sigmar). If only we had abilities which were affected by bravery like Crypt Flayers, for example.
Claws of Glory is plain funny. The same book gives command abilitiy which allows to reroll 1's in shooting and combat phase. We have a constellation which gives board-wide rerolls 1's. We have full reroll from astolith, we have reroll 1's from ScarVet for Saurus, we have reroll ones from Stegadon for skinks, we have reroll 1's from handlers for hunting packs. So why would be ever take it? Well, if we don't have constellation and we, for some reason, need to teleport razordons somewhere without a Hero or don't have CP and we want the to reroll 1's to hit... I just don't get it how could they give us such a redundant spell. I fear that the same people will be writing battletome... Just imagine if it gave us +1 to-hit. There would be tons of ways how to implement it. Every single monster unit would benifit from it. Carnosaurs with +1 on all their weapons, large stacks of warriors or knights, attacks exploding from ScarVet on Carno ability ob 5+ or sometimes even more, bastiladons hitting on 3+ and hunting pack on 2+. And it would be still balanced because it only affects one unit. Still not even near as stong as skaven shooting. This is what our army really, really needed.
Walk between the realms. When I read this ability's name, I thought it is another teleport. And, despite our army already having two teleports, third would be still nice. We could bring other warlord traits instead of great rememberer and even third teleport could be sometimes useful. Double movement? Awesome. We need it to bring in our artilley, behemoths and battlelines. +1 to run and charge? Awesome. We already have cogs and constellations for this, but +1 more is always useful. Such abilities would give us lots of combinations but what we should do with spell which gives just fly? Jump over screen troops? Ok, but we never know if we would really need it or not. Depends very much on terrian and opponet's army. And we always can use Slann's command ability, if we really need it, without wasting cast slot.
Other 3 spells are just plain simple. Unforging is random. It can win you games or do nothing at all. Convocation and Tempest are auto-choices because you will need mortal wounds in any situation and almost certainly hit hordes. If you don't need this spells... well, just spend attempt on CCP or cast Summon Starlight. They are nice, but they are not interesting. You cannot build strategy around using them. See horde - cast tempest. Don't see horde - cast convocation.
Let's take a look at them. If apotheosis restored d3 wounds and/or returned models, it could make monster-heavy and infantry builds way more interesting. It could bring Carnosaurs several brackets up on damage table. Or save bastiladon with 1 wound, if rolled high enough. Return models to temple guard/skinks/hunting packs. Well, now it can bring Carnosaur one braket up, but not always. With d3 one would at least always had a chance. It can save from a unit from being slain, but most likely not - there are enough 2 damage weapons around. And -1 bravery in a world of auto-passing morale is just useless (look at you, Cities of Sigmar). If only we had abilities which were affected by bravery like Crypt Flayers, for example.
Claws of Glory is plain funny. The same book gives command abilitiy which allows to reroll 1's in shooting and combat phase. We have a constellation which gives board-wide rerolls 1's. We have full reroll from astolith, we have reroll 1's from ScarVet for Saurus, we have reroll ones from Stegadon for skinks, we have reroll 1's from handlers for hunting packs. So why would be ever take it? Well, if we don't have constellation and we, for some reason, need to teleport razordons somewhere without a Hero or don't have CP and we want the to reroll 1's to hit... I just don't get it how could they give us such a redundant spell. I fear that the same people will be writing battletome... Just imagine if it gave us +1 to-hit. There would be tons of ways how to implement it. Every single monster unit would benifit from it. Carnosaurs with +1 on all their weapons, large stacks of warriors or knights, attacks exploding from ScarVet on Carno ability ob 5+ or sometimes even more, bastiladons hitting on 3+ and hunting pack on 2+. And it would be still balanced because it only affects one unit. Still not even near as stong as skaven shooting. This is what our army really, really needed.
Walk between the realms. When I read this ability's name, I thought it is another teleport. And, despite our army already having two teleports, third would be still nice. We could bring other warlord traits instead of great rememberer and even third teleport could be sometimes useful. Double movement? Awesome. We need it to bring in our artilley, behemoths and battlelines. +1 to run and charge? Awesome. We already have cogs and constellations for this, but +1 more is always useful. Such abilities would give us lots of combinations but what we should do with spell which gives just fly? Jump over screen troops? Ok, but we never know if we would really need it or not. Depends very much on terrian and opponet's army. And we always can use Slann's command ability, if we really need it, without wasting cast slot.
Other 3 spells are just plain simple. Unforging is random. It can win you games or do nothing at all. Convocation and Tempest are auto-choices because you will need mortal wounds in any situation and almost certainly hit hordes. If you don't need this spells... well, just spend attempt on CCP or cast Summon Starlight. They are nice, but they are not interesting. You cannot build strategy around using them. See horde - cast tempest. Don't see horde - cast convocation.
Saurus
VVolfsong
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Simply re-balancing our units is not enough to "fix" us. We're currently being carried more or less by summoning and our ridiculously strong faction ability alone. As long as these mechanics exists as they currently do, our units can never really be buffed or we'd become extremely overpowered. They both need to be changed to allow us to grow.
First off, summoning needs a new mechanic that doesn't require a Slann to be fielded as our general. The current mechanic promotes passive gameplay where our general does next to nothing but sit in a corner and generate summoning points. This is not only boring gameplay, but it also prevents Skinks and Saurus to ever realistically be used as generals, since doing so will mean we lose access to the ability completely and greatly reducing the strength of the army.
Fluff wise summoning can still be said to be done by the Slann, but it should not require one to be physically present. It would be both thematic and cool to get a slight boost to it if you do field one though. It would be the same as how LoSaT currently does not require a Slann in your army, but can be more powerful if one is.
Depending on how strong our baseline units become, summoning point generation and costs would need to be re-balanced completely. The more units we're able to summon during a game, the weaker overall our units must be to balance it out. I for one am tired of having weak units, so I'm all for reducing the overall strength of our summoning.
Next, Lords of Space and Time needs to be changed, or possibly even dropped completely. The power as is exists today is simply too strong. I'd prefer to see it replaced by something else, but I guess we'll first have to wait and see what direction they decide to take our lore; Are we ancient memories conjured forth on the physical plane or actual physical beings? Being able to teleport makes a lot more sense for one of those options, and not so much for the other. I have no good suggestions for an alternative ability.
Finally, once those two issues have been handled, we can get around to balancing our units. However, I would not be happy with simply adding some more wounds here and a bit of rend there. Many of our units are honestly pretty boring and could desperately use some special abilities and rules to make them stand out more. something to show that they're giant humanoid lizards and not just random units that could belong in any faction.
Take Saurus Knights for example. Ignoring their atrocious stat line, they're freaking dinosaurs riding dinosaurs, but there's nothing cool in their rules to reflect that. You could use that same stat line and rules on a unit in any other army, and it would be perfectly at home there. Our units lack inspiration.
Obviously, most of our units also need their stats tweaked and their abilities improved to fit into the current game. Also, every unit should have a role that it is at least decent in, or even excels at. Currently too many of our units are just in limbo with no real role to fill, or they're just bad at performing the role that they should be filling.
Balancing all of this, summoning, and our faction ability together basically means we'll have to be rebuilt from the ground up to get a good result.
I don't envy the persons that have to perform that task, but I do hope they get around to it soon.
First off, summoning needs a new mechanic that doesn't require a Slann to be fielded as our general. The current mechanic promotes passive gameplay where our general does next to nothing but sit in a corner and generate summoning points. This is not only boring gameplay, but it also prevents Skinks and Saurus to ever realistically be used as generals, since doing so will mean we lose access to the ability completely and greatly reducing the strength of the army.
Fluff wise summoning can still be said to be done by the Slann, but it should not require one to be physically present. It would be both thematic and cool to get a slight boost to it if you do field one though. It would be the same as how LoSaT currently does not require a Slann in your army, but can be more powerful if one is.
Depending on how strong our baseline units become, summoning point generation and costs would need to be re-balanced completely. The more units we're able to summon during a game, the weaker overall our units must be to balance it out. I for one am tired of having weak units, so I'm all for reducing the overall strength of our summoning.
Next, Lords of Space and Time needs to be changed, or possibly even dropped completely. The power as is exists today is simply too strong. I'd prefer to see it replaced by something else, but I guess we'll first have to wait and see what direction they decide to take our lore; Are we ancient memories conjured forth on the physical plane or actual physical beings? Being able to teleport makes a lot more sense for one of those options, and not so much for the other. I have no good suggestions for an alternative ability.
Finally, once those two issues have been handled, we can get around to balancing our units. However, I would not be happy with simply adding some more wounds here and a bit of rend there. Many of our units are honestly pretty boring and could desperately use some special abilities and rules to make them stand out more. something to show that they're giant humanoid lizards and not just random units that could belong in any faction.
Take Saurus Knights for example. Ignoring their atrocious stat line, they're freaking dinosaurs riding dinosaurs, but there's nothing cool in their rules to reflect that. You could use that same stat line and rules on a unit in any other army, and it would be perfectly at home there. Our units lack inspiration.
Obviously, most of our units also need their stats tweaked and their abilities improved to fit into the current game. Also, every unit should have a role that it is at least decent in, or even excels at. Currently too many of our units are just in limbo with no real role to fill, or they're just bad at performing the role that they should be filling.
Balancing all of this, summoning, and our faction ability together basically means we'll have to be rebuilt from the ground up to get a good result.
I don't envy the persons that have to perform that task, but I do hope they get around to it soon.
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Slann
Canas
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meh, I think our teleporting can stay provided you change the drawback into something actually meaningfull. The current drawback of the 9" minimum distance from enemies is simply too binary. If you're teleporting a shooty unit, or something like stegadons that can move a bit closer or have a more reliable charge, the "cost" is basicly meaningless. Whereas anything else is basicly useless for a turn after teleporting, making the cost super high in these cases. Similarly, a capable opponent can block a significant area of the battlefield, but he can't cover every viable spot. Which rather limits his ability to play around it as well. E.g. you're not going to stop a slann from retreating to safety with it, no matter how hard you try. Much better would be to implement a meaningfull cost regardless of what you teleport and where. If you do that you can buff our units.
Summoning needs a far greater overhaul though. The dependency on the slann, the passive stupidly passive playstyle, the amount of investment it needs with a slann, balewind, cogs etc. Again the bad range "drawback". And our fancier stuff being far too expensive and inefficient to summon in most situations resulting in mostly a skink and razordon spamfest. There's just so much in there that doesn't work nicely and mandates that certain aspects get undertuned or overtuned to keep it halfway balanced.
Summoning needs a far greater overhaul though. The dependency on the slann, the passive stupidly passive playstyle, the amount of investment it needs with a slann, balewind, cogs etc. Again the bad range "drawback". And our fancier stuff being far too expensive and inefficient to summon in most situations resulting in mostly a skink and razordon spamfest. There's just so much in there that doesn't work nicely and mandates that certain aspects get undertuned or overtuned to keep it halfway balanced.
Slann
Killer Angel
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OK, just finally took a look at Cities of Sigmar.
Do you know what pissed me off? No more general on horse, no more battlemage on horse.
Not only they were cool, but those are the models i own.
It's not the first time… also the necromancer, i've had one on nightmare, but NO, now all necromancers go by foot.
sigh.
Do you know what pissed me off? No more general on horse, no more battlemage on horse.
Not only they were cool, but those are the models i own.
It's not the first time… also the necromancer, i've had one on nightmare, but NO, now all necromancers go by foot.
sigh.
Cold One
Dracorex
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Maybe horses aren’t as common on the battlefield because of things like dragons or dinosaurs or other monsters. A regular horse would probably run away if it saw something like that. I think(I could be wrong about this) that chaos horses are either daemons or just brainwashed to serve their masters. And let’s face it, do you really think a horse would win against a giant velociraptor? Though that still doesn’t really explain the necromancer I guess.
Looking at the unboxing of the new Bloodbowl lizardman team, I can only bang my head on the table screaming Why why why GW!? Why can't we just get a kit with new saurus in this style? These new guys more or less follow the oldblood or veteran from the carnosaur kit, that model looks amazing on foot.
Cold One
Dracorex
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Slann
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But we still have regular empire cavalry, so that theory doesn't hold much water.
The only logical explanation could be if GW wants to sell more models...
