(POTENTIAL CONTROVERSY) 007 Film Continued Discussion

So are they paying 009, the female “Bond”, less money than 007 ?

****desperately searching for any connection to a Bond film****

 

I am going to leave aside the issue of the gender pay gap. Of all the talking points, it is probably the most contended by people on both sides of the divide, and depending on where you look the evidence can be overwhelmingly for or against it. However, even if it doesn’t exist, all it means is that women aren’t being paid less than men - it still leaves many other injustices and is by no means proof that feminism is invalid.

This is an extremely good point and one the left in general could do with taking into account more. To put it into the analogy I used before, I think the answer is to give more funding to the fire service - ie ensure all these issues are heard. Priority should still be given to the ‘minorities’ - they will be going through all the same issues the young white men will be, but will all the additional disadvantages afforded to them by gender/sexuality etc. However, to act like the issue doesn’t affect white men helps absolutely nobody.

That being said however, it doesn’t excuse what the right wing media are doing. If a young white man is sitting homeless in the street, the guy who goes up to him and says it’s his fault and that he should get up off his arse and work is undoubtedly an arsehole. But the true bastard in the guy who instead goes up to him, hands him a gun, and tells him to shoot that gay person over there and take their money.

I’m not quite sure what the point he’s trying to make is. Should Megan Rapinoe not call out the hypocrisy of the nomination? I think it would do people good to remember that oppressive people can still be nice to them personally, and to remember that they should still be called out for oppression anyway.

And the hypocrisy is there, assuming the statement that there is severe gender inequality in the hiring process is true (which the video itself does). In fact, I think we can use largely the same logic as you did with the gender pay gap.

The three possibilities:
1. There is sexism involved in the hiring process
2. Every single man given the job was objectively better than all female candidates for the role
3. The company is not interested in making money from its journalism.

As you did before, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to discount possibility three - it is a company after all. That leaves one and two. And number two, like the idea that Latino women are unable to do the job as well, is also absurd. That isn’t to say there aren’t plenty of men that could do the job better than there female candidates, but in that case the split would likely be 50-50, or at least near as dammit that the differences in employment would not be enough to make a point about. All that leaves us with is number one - something which I think we can all agree should be criticised and dealt with severely, regardless of whatever shiny medal the perpetrator might have just given you beforehand.

Child custody and mental health problems are undoubtedly the two main problems that affect men more than women in this day and age. I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise, and to attempt to downplay it benefits nobody. It is a simple fact that we need to do something about this. However, there are issues with the other graphs you show.

I challenge anyone here to try to think of ten jobs that aren’t nurse, teacher or secretary that if someone were to say to you, you would immediately picture a women in the role (gendered names like actress or businesswoman don’t count). Then do the same for men. People like to go on about how women don’t ever sign up for these jobs, but like it or not, these gender stereotypes have an impact on people. You make a point about women not being in the army and dying in conflicts, but I can almost guarantee you that when you first made that original list (assuming you were even able to, which I highly doubt) soldier was not among the jobs you came up with. Neither, I would imagine, did any of the jobs you would associate with having high rates of industrial accidents.

As men, we have always had the advantage of feeling like there is no job we could not take on account of gender, or at least not feel like we would be going against the grain in doing so (I’m sure nobody here is in the dark as to the sheer power of peer pressure). Having had this perspective all our lives, we simply cannot perceive what it like to not have that assumption that we can do anything and not feel weird about it. So while you can say that they shouldn’t feel constrained at all by these things, you genuinely have no idea what it’s like to be like that because for your entire life you’ve needed to.

Like I said, these gender stereotypes have power, and things are only going to get worse if they are left. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when women are dissuaded from these menial tasks, because it reinforces the stereotype that they don’t have that role and makes it even harder for them to break in. And when women are excluded from certain workplaces, it can lead to other sexist stereotypes appearing there that make the prospect even more unappealing. Just picture your stereotypical “builder’s mag” - if you were a woman, would you really want to work in an environment where that sort of thing was rife? Yes, you can go on about how men are on average stronger than women, but I’d wager there are plenty of women better equipped for these jobs than any of us, and until the proportions of employment based in gender reflect that, I don’t think you can claim it’s not an issue.

As for the homicide graph, as much as anything this comes down to society’s views of masculinity and femininity and their extremes (these views are also what cause the extreme mental health problems prevalent in men). To be “masculine” according to our society is to be assertive, dominant, boisterous and not afraid to back down from a fight. When taken to extremes, it can lead to bullying, assault and yes, homicides; it becomes toxic. Because masculinity is most often emphasised when alongside other men, it stands to reason that most of the victims of it would also be men. It also has the byproduct of making talking about feelings a stigma for men, producing the mental health problem.

Femininity is different however. While masculinity is meant to play up everything dominant, femininity is instead all about being a submissive as possible. To be feminine is to be girly, cute, submissive and unthreatening. As a result, when taken to its logical extremes, femininity doesn’t really cause harm to others as it’s whole purpose is to remove that possibility. As such, toxic femininity doesn’t exist (or at least isn’t toxic to anyone other than the person taking it to the extreme). That isn’t to say that toxic women don’t exist or that there are fewer of them than toxic men - there are plenty and equal numbers of both. But the act of being feminine - society’s ideal woman, doesn’t lead to the same problems as the male one does - certainly not as many homicides.

Whatever your perspective on it though, I think it’s safe to say ditching these stereotypes is in the interests of everyone, both male and female. It prevents people from feeling cut out of jobs, pressured into adopting traits that are harmful to them and in some cases could well lead to fewer cases of homicides as the behaviours that lead to them are venerated less. Feminist or MRA, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for us all to work towards this

 

It doesn’t mean there isn’t equal opportunities, but if you are constantly being subconsciously taught that men are police officers and women are nurses, that’s bound to have an impact on. I would have though that Sweden is very good for having equal opportunities for both genders to pursue any roles, but I doubt even they are past the point of stereotyping and thus pushing different genders towards different roles

 

Several posts earlier, Somebody mentioned Plumber in a list of low paying, blue collar, “Man jobs”. As opposed to their other job list which college degrees and Office based.

Two points:

Plumbers can charge bucket tons of money, plumbers do charge tons of money, it is not a low paying job. (1)

There are not a lot of guys going into the plumbing trade. Finding a good plumber is incredibly difficult. Hiring one = stupid expensive.

No amount of well intentioned social engineering is ever going to see women signing up in droves to be plumbers. Plumbing is an example of a trade women are simply going to leave to men. And it will never matter how much it pays.

There are Always going to be trades and professions dominated by one gender or the other. (2) Always.

I am sure there is some trade that men are going to largely leave to women as well. The job of finishing and decorating another person’s finger nails (?) whatever that is called. That might be an example.

 

In a world where the Bond franchise needs an enemy that no one will be offended if Bond annilhilates them there’s the answer.

No, no, no, no I am talking the characters not the actors. Does every 00 agent get paid the same? Does 007 make more because he has more secrets to keep? More than a newly minted, female 008 ?

Is Daniel Craig in this next movie?

**** continues desperate effort to shove thread back to topic****

^ This ^

Gender based.

There are such things as tasks men would rather not do. There are such things as tasks women are more trusted to be doing.

 

I don’t think this thread was really meant to be just about discussing the next Bond film - as much as anything I think it was more of a stepping stone to get onto other things, so don’t feel it has to stay on that particular line! If you like, I’ll change the name to the “Political discussion thread” to make things a bit clearer!

 

Did we watch the same video? The video says nothing about hiring processes or pay gaps. It was a tangent to the subject.

Shapiro's message in the video is that SI choose Megan Rapinoe as its athlete of the year, in part because of her politics, and they were immediately scolded by her anyways. He is ridiculing her for ripping on the very people who just gave her an awarding and simultaneously laughing at that fact that SI (a woke publication) got what they deserved for their SJW pandering.

"I only hope that Megan Rapinoe continues to do this. I hope she continues to wipe the floor with all of the SJW editors who worship at her alter and then come before her to kiss the ring and she immediately slaps them, backhands across their faces."

The video has nothing to do with how much the journalists are being paid or in what proportion men and women are being hired. I have no idea how you drew your conclusions. I award you no points. Re-watch the video.

 

Maybe the two of you did not watch the same video.

Recently, YouTube has been playing the video it feels like playing rather than the one I actually tapped on.

I have encountered this behavior playing Old Rock Band music videos (nothing related to any of the politickety vids you guys are posting). But on that subject: watched none of them I have. [/yoda voice]

@Everyone :: if the video link has been posted raw with no preceding comment. I ignore them. By policy. I need to know how long it is, if there is nudity, foul language, or anything else that might dictate not playing it at certain times or in some venues.

I need a general idea what I am clicking on and how many minutes out of my life it will be if I watch it.

 

Should I recognize her? Looks a bit like the evil queen from Snow White -?-Cinderella...the TV version....Once Upon A Time.

 

What’s wrong with people pointing out hypocrisy where it’s present? The other part was me just explaining why they were being hypocritical, but in terms of the actual calling out, I fail to see the problem. We should all be willing to listen and take into account criticism; it’s just basic self improvement. Just because an arsehole is being nice to you personally doesn’t mean you should stop calling them out for being an arsehole.