Poll: Star Wars vs. The Lord of the Rings / The Hobbit

@Imrahil : That feels to be a correct analysis of Sam. He was always in a subordinate position relative to Frodo. He was always serving and supporting him.

Well, you guys have done it. You've made me dislike Frodo even more. Not only did he fail at his one job (which he still did!), but he also had the effect of bringing down or inhibiting the greatness in those around him (Sam). Frodo did want the ring back from Sam, which is why Sam gave it to him... another failure on Frodo's part.

But sadly diverting away from Star Wars, not on @NIGHTBRINGER 's watch!


We've been comparing the relative merits of Frodo, (prime) Bilbo and Sam as ring bearers, but I propose another....

Prime Yoda!

He is better in ever conceivable way.

• far wiser and more intelligent
• proven track record of being highly aware of and resistant to being corrupted
• can easily best any adversary that he might come across in middle earth
• even if Sauron did by chance did reacquire the ring, Yoda could best him too. I mean, if an injured Isildur with a broken sword could do it, then a highly trained Jedi Grandmaster with both the force at his disposal and a lightsaber could accomplish the task with absolute ease!

Another Jedi that could have carried the ring was Mace Windu. Windu's fighting style, Form VII - Vaapad, allows the user to channel both his and his opponent's darkness without succumbing to it. Windu is the only one to have truly mastered it (and it is also the reason why he is said to have been able to defeat Sidious). He can harness and use the darkside without falling prey to it. This should largely inoculate him against the rings influence.

Spoiler: course language

 

Didn't Frodo also get his life shortened by aforementioned nazgul blade meaning he'd live a shorter hobbit life surrounded by practical immortals. Sad fate if you think about it, doomed to make the elves around him in "heaven" sad.

I'd argue that windu was one of the more neutral jedi of the order, hence probably as you predict a great carrier of the ring. His emotions seemed to mostly resonate with his duty rather than the good or evil of what was happening.

I'd argue with you on Yoda, except against Gandalf, who seem to have the thickest plot armour available to any character ever. I do also think their relative power to one another is even ish, but Gandalf is practically so plot armoured it protects those around him. Yoda was capable of defeat, Gandalf when defeated came back stronger. Even as I realize this I like star wars more, and lotr less.

Another excellent ring carrier would be Qui Gon Jinn, of the Jedi he was one of the most level minded and foreseeing. He achieved the ability to transcend mortality and become a force echo because he was so intrinsically bound to the flow off and mind of the force. He seemed to follow the will of the Force more closely than the rest of the Jedi, relying on it's will, rather than that of the order. I think he would have been able to carry the ring safely to Mordor, just as he was post-humously able to carry Anakin into Padawanship, by not being clouded by prejudice or malice but simply doing, what was meant to be done.

On the topic of Qui Gon, is it not possible, that because he felt the force the way he did, and followed it the way he did, he was, subconsciously or (i'd like to think) consciously a tool that was meant to bring Anakin into the Jedi order to destroy it. He might have hoped there was hope for the order, but i think it could be assumed that the force wanted Anakin to be found at an age too old, and it wanted him to fall, and that it knew that Qui Gon Jinn was the only Jedi that would bring that reality by defying the council. He also always seemed so at ease in the moment of his death to me, very much like when Obi is killed in IV, it seems planned, like he knew it had to happen.

Also, i might just be ascribing too much to these stories altogether.

 

If we cast aside plot armour, I think Yoda is the clear winner.

Gandalf isn't all that great of a wizard. His spells, for the most part are pretty mediocre (nothing like we'd see in the Harry Potter universe for instance). In combat, Yoda's force abilities easily trump Gandalf's magic.

For the majority of time in LOTR, when faced with enemies, Gandalf engages them in melee combat. He fights well enough (against canon fodder), while Yoda on the other hand is a near unstoppable force (and we're seeing him far outside of his physical prime). Only Sidious was able to match up against him. Yoda is many times quicker than Gandalf and a far more elusive target due to his size, speed, agility, acrobatics and force augmented reaction time. His lightsaber is also a game changer. It will cut through any and all of Gandalf's weapons.

Also, consider what universe each of the exist in. Yoda has to deal with ships, blasters, droids, technology, etc. The mighty game chaning eagles from LOTR would near useless in the Star Wars universe. So Yoda, survives and excels in a much more hostile and lethal environment. Middle Earth would pose no threat.

 

Gandalf has used Magic multiple times in books and movies, and i think it's generally underplayed how much power he has. That said, you're correct, Harry Potter magic seems stronger, especially forbidden beasts (adult) Harry magic.

I also forgot about the specifics of Gandalfs actual magic, and the elements he "controls". Lightning Yoda (and any Jedi really) has shown aptitude for defending against, fire simply seems to slow of an element to catch him, and ice has the same problem as fire not to mention that Jedi should be able to stick to their feet on a sheet of ice considering their training.

Just to come with some sort of argument for poor LotR and Gandalf (someone has to), Gandalf would win in an attrition war assuming Eru still believed he was fighting for his purpose, ONLY because he would come back everytime Yoda killed him so he could wait him out over some 30-40 years. I mean really. It's a futile argument.

I give in.

I'd even go as far as to say most of the Jedi in Star wars should defeat Gandalf except maybe for the two knights Windu brought to fight Sidious that were instantly killed, and they might still stand a chance.

I even considered the Balrog fight for a second. But Obi, a comparably weaker Jedi than Yoda, and a young Anakin beat equally fierce beasts in the Geonesian arena, and it took way less than ten days (unless the movie skipped a lot in time during that arena scene).

GO YODA!

 

Gandalf lost to Saruman. Sarumon was no match against Yoda...

 

In Gandalf's, who would stil lose, defense, when he lost to Saruman, he had not yet lost his body to the balrog. After he died, Eru brought him back, and as the only truly purposeful maiar at the time, more of his true power was unlocked. Gandalf was shackled to only do as much to interfere with the lives of mortals and the realm of middle earth. From what I double checked to have just a wee argument for a duel against a jedi his true power in the realms beyond the sea would be even greater.

His own words were that he did not believe himself stronger than Sauron and he was not sure he could beat the witch king, but after his death, when he became the white, he at least did have more power than Saruman.

Just trying to defend the man a little bit, because in the expanded lore, his power is rather complicated. Does that make him stronger than most Jedi.

No.

 

But the midichlorians are inside him. They are a part of him. When you pluck him out of the Star Wars universe and into Middle Earth the midiclorians come with him.

It's besides the point anyways. We're analyzing their relative abilities as they are traditionally exhibited.

 

I think we discussed it enough for now anyways. And you're correct in that the comparison is moot from the differences of universes although, i did enjoy it.

And you're right about the God/Angel argument. I'd argue they were Demi-gods in the "near god" range with potential for promotion. It's just easier to clutch the first descriptor i learned about them - them being wizards and therefore underselling them.

 

LOTR holding onto the narrowest of margins. I wonder if it is because Lustria Online is a fantasy based forum (with LOTR heavily influencing Warhammer). People into WHFB or AoS might lean more towards Fantasy than Science Fiction. Would it be any different on a 40k forum? In the general public? Perhaps... perhaps not.

 

I'm not sure either.

I do think Star Wars is still the more popular franchise among the general public, although it's speculation at best as I have no supporting data.

The LOTR fan base did handle it brilliantly. Two important things of note though:

1. They had the benefit of hindsight. They already saw what happened to Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc.
2. From the Star Wars debacle arose the Fandom Menace

 

Star Wars is fantasy too though? Just happens to be set in space with laser swords.

It's a Good vs Evil story following the journey of a seemingly insignificant person, with the potential of greatness, work/bumble their way through a series of trials that forge them into the being that can capitalize on being in the right place at the right time. Classic traditional fantasy shtuff .


Also, Yoda would probably bring his midichlorians with him, but into a universe that would potentially be silent to their call. To my understanding midichlorians are the conduit through which the lifeforce of the universe flows, and without midichlorians pervading everthing around it already, I wouldn't assume that Jedi powers would last long in a world without them. But if you retcon that prequel retcon it gets easier to have that conversation. (Midichlorians were a mistake that rarely ever gets mentioned again by the writers of Star Wars for good reason).