Poll: ATLA - Choose 6 to protect you, the rest will try to kill you

NIGHTBRINGER said:

A good question. I definitely think it is a huge step down as compared to ATLA. It's not a bad show, but ATLA is close to perfection. If ATLA is a 10 on a scale of 0-10, then The Legend of Korra is a 6 at best.

Some of the things I disliked about the Legend of Korra:

• the characters are far less likable, especially the central characters. I don't really root for any of them. The only notable exception is Varrick, who is pure gold.
• the story is far more disjointed. ATLA built better from season to season
• most of the humor didn't really hit home for me (Varrick being the exception once again)
• Korra, despite starting the show with 3 elements already mastered, comes off as incompetent. I can't count the number of times she entered the Avatar state only to get absolutely bodied by an opponent she should have defeated. When Aang entered the avatar state it was awe-inspiring, but when Korra did so she didn't seem all that powerful... just the plain old Korra with glowy eyes. Additionally (and in line with point one), she isn't a particularly likable protagonist.
• they took one of the few elements that I disliked in ATLA, namely bloodbending, and dialed it up to an eleven. It wasn't good in ATLA (though it was thankfully limited to a single episode), and it is worse in Korra. Additionally, I did not like the addition of the lava bending ability granted to the earth benders. I could see them manipulating lava that was already there, but not creating it. Lava feels like the amalgamation of earth and fire bending, so giving it to earth benders seemed arbitrary.
• the "spirit world" story lines feel over done and boring
• I enjoyed the setting/world of ATLA far more

Some of the things I liked about the Legend of Korra:

• Varrick was awesome and is interplay with Zhu Li was always fun
• Ming-Hua (the armless water bender) was a badass character. Additionally, I like the concept of their whole team (aside from the Lava bending)
• the animation, just like in ATLA, was solid
• there were some fun nods to classic characters, with Iroh and Toph especially standing out. (this could also be considered a weakness, as my favourite parts of the show revolved around old ATLA characters).

Ultimately, I had some fun watching the show, but it is far cry from the original. ATLA is my favorite show of all time, while Korra wouldn't even crack my top 50. I recommend ATLA to everyone who hasn't seen it, but I never do so for Korra. It's not bad, but it is far from great.


What about you? How did you feel about the show? How would you compare it to ATLA? Pros & cons? (same questions for @Scalenex )

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• I think LoK is good, not great. 6/10 or 7/10 feels about right.
• I think the animation was excellent and potentially better than ATLA at times.
• I also don't find Korra as charming as Aang, but she's alright. The show is a bit more angsty teens/twenties.
• I agree that the stories feel less connected. I guess it was more of her adventures/trials as Avatar and less about her learning her abilities. However, that is one of the clever aspects I really like about the seasons of ATLA.
• I was VERY disappointed that LoK basically breaks the Avatar cycle.

I mainly ask because the premise of the post made me think of the Red Lotus who go after Korra. I know you're not a fan of lavabending (me either, really), but Zaheer, P'Li, Ming-Hua, and Ghazan are a great "rogue's gallery" for Korra. I think that's arguably the strongest season of LoK. Although, I do like to look of the masked Amon ffrom season 1. Amon and his cult initially came across suitably creepy and dangerous.

NIGHTBRINGER said:

I might have asked you guys already, but @Killer Angel , @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl and @Imrahil , have any of you watched Avatar: The Last Airbender? We'd love you guys to contribute to the topic, but as you haven't thus far, I'm guessing you haven't seen the show.

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Do you hold me for some sort of barbarian?

Of course I have watched it, at least twice
I voted for my characters already, but have not, for the most part, contemplated why I picked all of them.

Perhaps I will add some sort of a motivation later

Grrr, !mrahil

NIGHTBRINGER said:

It wasn't good in ATLA (though it was thankfully limited to a single episode), and it is worse in Korra.

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It was in two episodes of ATLA...you obviously won't paying attention. And you call yourself a fan.

I have not watched all of Legend of Korra. My streaming with Paramount+ was getting really buggy, so I opted to quit streaming services all together and either buy DVDs or borrow them at the library. My local library only has season 2 of ATLA and none of Korra.

I have recently begun my first re-watch of ATLA with a buddy. We are watching two or three episodes a week on his Netflix. Eventually we may go through Korra. Or I might break down and buy a DVD set of ATLA and Korra.

I only have half of season 1 and some assorted clips on Youtube as a point of reference for Legend of Kora. There are fans who say Legend of Kora is just as good as ATLA, fans who say it is almost as good, fans who say it is not nearly as good but still okay and there is fans who say Kora is trash.

As far as I know, no one says Legend of Kora is better ATLA.

I haven't seen enough of Legend of Kora to make a definitive judgement. There are parts of Legend of Kora that I like better.

1) It gets a little old watching kids and teenagers defeat adults with more strength and experience than them. At least the core cast Kora is adults.

There is a joke by Harry Potter fans that repeated magic use causes brain damage. Young adults are the strongest wizards because they have more knowledge than children but less brain damage than the older people.

I tried to coin a joke that element bending causing incipient insanity, but you can mitigate this by drinking lots of tea.

All the older benders except except for Iroh are at least somewhat off. Bumi is batshit crazy, Ozai is unhinged, the Boulder is conflicted, I don't remember his name but hte Earth kingdom commander that tried to traumatize Aang into the Avatar state was not very stable, the Earth king with the bear was childishly naive, the Earth dude who ran the Ba Sing Sa conspiracy was certainly not mentally stable, Huu believes everything is an illusion, Combustion Man is basically a robot, Hama is evil crazy but given what she went through that is kind of understandable.

ATLA is not a world where all adults are stupid or crazy. The non-bender characters are generally capable leaders aware of their surroundings and capable of making good judgements routinely. There is one exception to the rule.



But I suspect he is secretly a cabbage bender.

2) Every avatar except Aang took years to master the elements, so Kora follows the rules of the Avatar universe.

3) I am a fantasy fan and an aspiring fantasy writer. I do not believe I have ever seen a high magic setting set in the 1920s. What is even more special is that the setting of Legend of Kora mostly stands up to scrutiny. The world progressed logically and consistently building on the existing lore. Mostly, apparently the giant death robots at the end of the series were kind of a stretch.

4) I like that Kora's struggles and adventures are not just a carbon copy of Aang. I did watch a Youtube video talking about the four avatars before Aang. It is a recurring theme that every avatar ends up starting their career by cleaning up the messes of the previous avatar left behind.

For some Avatar news.

It is fact that there is a live action ATLA remake in the works nearing completion on Netflix. It is also a fact that the ATLA creators walked away and/or were driven away from the project. Very few ATLA fans are optimistic the show will be good but it looks like it will be better than the movie. Which is admittedly low bar.

The original creator of ATLA has been green lit to make a new Avatar series and a new Avatar movie, with more to come if these next two projects are successful. It looks like the studio is aiming to release the movie and the series during the same week to heighten buzz and convince more people to join Paramount's crappy streaming service.

The new movie is said to be a direct sequel to ATLA showing the Gaang as young adults. There is no official announcement on what the show is going to be about but a credible leak seems to suggest that it's going to cover the next avatar after Kora which would theoretically make it similar to modern day, but the fact that the world is now full of spirits is likely to make a setting that does not even superficially resemble the modern day.

Aight since nobody asked it is time for my opinion as well.

1. Aang- obvious choice. Do I need to explain this one?
2. Roku- man fought an actual damn volcano. Sure, he had help but it is still an absurdly impressive feat. Again, man was the avatar.
3. Kyoshi- oh hey another avatar, sensing a theme? Anyway the feat of "I wanted to be left alone so moved an island miles into the ocean" is both absurdly powerful and kind of funny.
4. Iroh- despite his appearance in the main show as an old man we get to see that the man is a total bad ass. Would be more than a match for most of the people on the list
5. Zuko- an excellent fire bender, and had the balls to try and hunt down the avatar often single handed for much of the series. If we're going off his feats in later seasons as well, he is generally more than a match for a lot of people on the list, especially when you realize that he probably could've taken Azula if he didn't save Katara from getting zapped.
6. Ty Lee?- Honestly I am not sure about this choice, maybe would've been better to take Katara or Toph. That said someone who can disable a bender for a time can be exceptionally useful.

Some other considerations for the group I assembled is also not just on their feats alone but how well they could play as a team. The avatar(s) are a freebee as they're basically the same person through time, at least in terms of the experience they can tap into. Iroh, also a freebee, and if we're going on Zuko in later seasons the guy clearly could play nicely with the team, and would be a good addition.

Just A Skink said:

I mainly ask because the premise of the post made me think of the Red Lotus who go after Korra. I know you're not a fan of lavabending (me either, really), but Zaheer, P'Li, Ming-Hua, and Ghazan are a great "rogue's gallery" for Korra. I think that's arguably the strongest season of LoK.

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They were definitely one of the best parts of LoK. I especially love their escape scenes. Calling them the Red Lotus (a nod to the Order of the White Lotus) was also a very nice touch. I agree that it is probably the best LoK season (which still pales in comparison to the weakest ATLA season)

Just A Skink said:

I think the animation was excellent and potentially better than ATLA at times.

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I noticed that some of the early episodes in season 1 of ATLA had some resolution issues (at least in the official DVD release). It feels slightly off, but luckily clears up after a few episodes. I'm not sure if this is the case in the Blu-Ray release. Up scaling to HD can be iffy; sometimes good, sometimes less so.

Scalenex said:

Avatar the Last Air Bender and Legend of Korra are about character arcs more than they are about raw power or clever technique.

I think if you take his morality away, Aang would actually be a weaker fighter. To a lesser extant this applies to Zuko, Iroh, Katara, Bumi, Ty Lee and Toph.

For instance I don't think Ty Lee would be able to nullify benders chakras if her sense of spirituality if she didn't deeply want a non-lethal way to nullify benders.

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I highly disagree. It actually works in the exact opposite way. If I fight a perfect copy of myself that is equal in everyway, but he lacks all morality, my copy would have a massive advantage.

Using Aang as an example, he was always at his strongest when he let go. Early on this is evidenced when he loses control and enters the Avatar state (before he even has full control over it). In this state he is acting on sheer impulse; a survival instinct with morality greatly diminished. We can see it here:

• General Fong purposefully triggers Aang's avatar state
• sandbenders steal Appa Aang loses it .

In the climax of the show, Aang is fighting Ozai and Ozai launches lightning at him. Aang is in the process of redirecting the lightning back at Ozai and you can tell by Ozai's facial expression that he recognizes he is screwed. Aang's morality kicks in and in the very last second he changes is point of aim and redirects the lightning harmlessly into the sky. If he hadn't had that burst of morality, he would have more than likely ended the fight there and then. Instead, the fight persists and Ozai turns the tables on him. Aang goes from the cusp of victory to a state of extreme peril. It isn't until his Avatar state is triggered once again (once again limiting his morality in the process) that he claims victory. In the Avatar State he simply doesn't pull his punches.

Admittedly you can contest the Avatar State examples I provided because the Avatar State is a confounding variable. However, not ending the fight with Ozai when he had the chance (while Aang is in his normal state) still proves the point that Aang's morality makes him a less effective combatant.

Let's look at another example that you provided; Katara. This one is actually a lot more straight forward. Katara learns bloodbending but literally limits its use (and abandons training and mastering it further) out of a sense of morality. She is straight up forgoing her most powerful skill due to her morality. A Katara with diminished morals would embrace the skill, master it further and would be infinitely more dangerous as a result.

As for Ty Lee, her strength comes from her agility, movement, flexibility and the general control over her body that she acquired through her acrobatics and gymnastic experience in the circus. She is too fast for her opponent to hit and they're too slow to avoid her strikes. That is where her combat prowess stems from. While she mastered and uses her chi blocking ability to avoid killing, a less moral version of her could just as easily move into the exact same position and land dagger strikes instead. The dagger strike would also debilitate her opponent just at the chi blocking does, but would do so with the added effects of pain, blood loss, injury, potential maiming or death. She defeated Katara with chi blocking, but Katara lived to fight another day. A less moral version of Ty Lee would have permanently ended Katara in their very first encounter.

All other things being equal, a lack of morality makes for a more formidable combatant. It isn't until we start dealing with groups/societies/civilizations that the tables begin to turn in favour of morality. A group of immoral fighters will have much less trust in each other and are more likely to undermine each other than a group of highly moral people that genuinely care for one another. It's sort of like the Jedi and the Sith. The Sith are typically more powerful (especially in the EU) on an individual level but become weaker in large numbers. Betrayal, infighting and suspicion all flourish in an environment devoid of morality. They can't build a cohesive group like the Jedi can.

Scalenex said:

It was in two episodes of ATLA...you obviously won't paying attention. And you call yourself a fan.

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Considering that it is my most hated aspect of ATLA, you can forgive me for actively trying to block it out. I rarely give it much thought and usually skip over the episode anyways. But yes, she does use the ability ever so briefly during S03E16, The Southern Raiders.


Bloodbending was a stupid addition to what is a near flawless show. For one it is too powerful and secondly it opens up a whole can worms. They should not have extended bending to within the body. If a water bender can bloodbend, then by the same logic, an earth bender who can metal bend could just as easily pull to iron out of their opponent's hemoglobin... hurray, next to no oxygen carrying capacity... game over!

Imrahil said:

Do you hold me for some sort of barbarian?

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I mean you did post over a thousand Pokemon pictures

Imrahil said:

I voted for my characters already, but have not, for the most part, contemplated why I picked all of them.

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At the very least, list your team (even without your rationale for the choices if you're lacking the time for an in depth post). The poll shows us which characters are most often chosen, but completely obscures each person's individual team.

Lizerd said:

especially when you realize that he probably could've taken Azula if he didn't save Katara from getting zapped.

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Only because Azula had mentally snapped by that point. He even admits that he is no match for her, which is why he brings Katara along. It isn't until he confronts her that he realizes that she is far below her full potential... "There's something off about her. I can't explain it but she's slipping".

Azula is a straight up assassin. A pure fire bending prodigy. Prime Azula takes prime Zuko 99 times out of 100.

NIGHTBRINGER said:

Only because Azula had mentally snapped by that point. He even admits that he is no match for her, which is why he brings Katara along. It isn't until he confronts her that he realizes that she is far below her full potential... "There's something off about her. I can't explain it but she's slipping".

Azula is a straight up assassin. A pure fire bending prodigy. Prime Azula takes prime Zuko 99 times out of 100.

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Definitely a fair assessment, especially as I haven't rewatched that part in a hot minute. That said, if I am putting together a team of people trying to protect me, one of those people going nuts is not a trait I would want if I am trying to maximize my chances to survive

Lizerd said:

That said, if I am putting together a team of people trying to protect me, one of those people going nuts is not a trait I would want if I am trying to maximize my chances to survive

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True, but remember, as per the rules in the opening post, no matter who you choose, you get them at their very best as depicted during the events of the show. Otherwise, consider that at one point, Zuko lost his ability to fire bend.

Also, their sole focus is to protect you, above all else. So as long as you are alive, she would remain focused. If you died in the scenario, then she might mentally breakdown, but at that point, who cares!

Mind you, I'm not saying that you shouldn't choose Zuko, he is a solid choice and has many great skills. Some of those skills and traits might just justify his selection over Azula for a particular team or strategy. As they say, styles make fights. My point is simply that 1v1 against a prime Azula is an uphill battle for him. Avatars aside, there are few on the list that wouldn't fall against her (I can really only think of 2 characters who I would legitimately favour over her in a straight up fight).

NIGHTBRINGER said:

I highly disagree. It actually works in the exact opposite way.

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However, not ending the fight with Ozai when he had the chance (while Aang is in his normal state) still proves the point that Aang's morality makes him a less effective
combatant.

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They can't build a cohesive group like the Jedi can.

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Everything you said in your post is correct, but I have a counter argument.

I saw a video of ATLA analysis and read the comment section debating on whether an Avatar could turn evil or not.

The argument was made that in order to master all four elements and the viewpoints and philosophies of all four kingdoms. The narrator then went on to explain that someone who empathizes with others that well cannot be truly evil.

His conclusion was that there is nothing to stop an avatar from turning evil, but that avatar would be less powerful than the other avatars only able to do mediocre bending in the elements he or she wasn't born with. Though said avatar would probably still be more powerful than any mono-bender, they wouldn't be able to single-handedly break armies like other benders can do at their peak.

This does not invalidate your arguments though. I think it's possible for an evil person to have deep understandings of others or for a person with deep understanding of others to turn evil. It is simply rare. Sometimes they are called empathic bullies. These villains are both loathsome and terrifying.

In my opinion, Azula understands the feelings and motivations of others quite well though none of the other villains in ATLA would qualify as empathic bullies. Even then, Azula had a blind spot understanding Mai, Ty Lee and own mother though she could play everyone's else like a harp.

In Aang's case, one could build up empathy and the bending ability and then get angry. You could theoretically have the best of both worlds. There is a novel series for Avatar Kyoshi and I skimmed the synopsis. She has a very complicated story which allows her to be both compassionate and ruthless. In many ways, she is the exception that proves the rule with Avatar and I'm not sure if her novel series is technically canon.

On the list above, every character except Roku and Kyoshi was alive at the same time. Therefore I think they should not be on the list. And for balance, Aang should not be on the list. Also, I cannot imagine Aang trying to kill anyone who doesn't threaten Appa and I wouldn't threaten Appa, he is too adorable.

Here is a Scalenex original. You can tell it's from me because it's wordy. The first part is his actual quote from the show word for word. The second part was what ran through my head against his moral justification.



I think your point that morality is a handicap in a fight to the death is correct, but not it's not as big of a handicap as you think. But I suppose I was if I was in a fight to the death, I would much rather have a 100% chance of winning than a 98%. I wouldn't sleep much the night before before a day I had a 2% chance of dying.

Scalenex said:

but I have a counter argument.

I saw a video of ATLA analysis and read the comment section debating on whether an Avatar could turn evil or not.

The argument was made that in order to master all four elements and the viewpoints and philosophies of all four kingdoms. The narrator then went on to explain that someone who empathizes with others that well cannot be truly evil.

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To me that sounds like more of a fan theory. I don't think it is justified by anything that is presented throughout the series. While the show does demonstrate that each element requires a different mindset/outlook/strategy in its use and mastery, I never got the impression that this requisite information was reliant on empathy in order to be obtained. Sure, you could study a people and their philosophies and arrive at the information, but you could also acquire the same information in any number of other ways.

Take earth bending for example, Toph says:

"The key to earth bending is your stance, you've got to be steady and strong. Rock is a stubborn element. If you're going to move it, you've got to be like a rock yourself."

It's a combination of a mindset in conjunction with technical information. It doesn't require empathizing with the people of the Earth Kingdom. One could acquire all the necessary knowledge out of completely self serving interests without even the faintest care for anybody else.

Scalenex said:

Sometimes they are called empathic bullies.

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Something along these lines and the first example that comes to my mind would be a serial killer. They, more than anybody else, have their empathy/morality switch turned off. However, they typically come off as highly charismatic, seemingly trustworthy and likeable. That's the reason why they are repeatedly successful at the terrible things they do. They are able to connect and understand others, even while they are hiding the fact that they themselves don't form the emotional connections that those they prey on develop.

Scalenex said:

In my opinion, Azula understands the feelings and motivations of others quite well though none of the other villains in ATLA would qualify as empathic bullies. Even then, Azula had a blind spot understanding Mai, Ty Lee and own mother though she could play everyone's else like a harp.

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Azula is a control freak. Everything came so naturally to her. She became accustomed to being able to control people and situations. That's why she is so thoroughly blindsided by the betrayal of Mai and Ty Lee. When they broke Azula's perception of complete control, Azula's mental state was broken as a result. Ironic that someone so good at establishing compliance and control, loses control of her own mind in the end.

As an aside, Azula is such an awesome character!

Scalenex said:

On the list above, every character except Roku and Kyoshi was alive at the same time. Therefore I think they should not be on the list. And for balance, Aang should not be on the list.

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I agree. If it were I who had compiled the original list in the picture, I would not have included any of the Avatars. My thinking is that it is pointless to include auto-includes in the list when you get them for the same price (i.e. one of your six selections) as any other character. Assigning a dollar value that is proportionate to the character's power level and giving respondents a set dollar value to start with makes more sense. Having someone like Kyoshi and Suki "cost" the same amount is a bit silly.

That said, the fact the Avatars proved not to be auto-includes does admittedly contradict my personal line of thinking:
Aang made it into 6 of 7 lists
Kyoshi made it into 4 of 7 lists
Roku made it into 3 of 7 lists (less than half!)

So I suppose their inclusion was ultimately revealing. If I had made the list, and excluded them, I would have deprived us of this information. It's interesting to see how other people employ different strategies in the formation of their group. It may not be how I go about doing it, but that is what makes the exercise and discussion fun.

Scalenex said:

and I wouldn't threaten Appa, he is too adorable.

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Agreed! He is so lovable!

Scalenex said:

I think your point that morality is a handicap in a fight to the death is correct, but not it's not as big of a handicap as you think. But I suppose I was if I was in a fight to the death, I would much rather have a 100% chance of winning than a 98%. I wouldn't sleep much the night before before a day I had a 2% chance of dying.

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I think the level of advantage that an immoral person has will vary greatly depending on the situation. Sometimes it will be small as you suggest and at other times it will be utterly decisive.

NIGHTBRINGER said:

I mean you did post over a thousand Pokemon pictures

At the very least, list your team (even without your rationale for the choices if you're lacking the time for an in depth post). The poll shows us which characters are most often chosen, but completely obscures each person's individual team.

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Well, because you are so convincing.

My picks are:

- Aang: Obviously, and because I chose Aang I reasoned that all Avatars are embodied in him once entering the Avatar state. So I did not pick any other Avatars
- Ty Lee: Because like @Lizerd said, it is good to have a skilled non bender that can neutralize benders
- Iroh: Experienced and wise. Also a good adviser
- Katara: because a powerful waterbender can get you a long way
- Toph: Because she is bad-ass
- Bumi: Because he is crazy like a rock and I like that.

You even got a little motivation for my choices

Grrr, !mrahil

NIGHTBRINGER said:

Aang made it into 6 of 7 lists
Kyoshi made it into 4 of 7 lists
Roku made it into 3 of 7 lists (less than half!)

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I went by the pictures and I thought the picture of Kyoshi was one of Suki's sisters in arms. Otherwise I would have put her on my list.

Roku is the avatar I'd trust to have my back least. Except Kuruk (the avatar before Kyoshi) who has a track record of failing to protect people but he wasn't on the list.

Imrahil said:

Well, because you are so convincing.

My picks are:

- Aang: Obviously, and because I chose Aang I reasoned that all Avatars are embodied in him once entering the Avatar state. So I did not pick any other Avatars
- Ty Lee: Because like @Lizerd said, it is good to have a skilled non bender that can neutralize benders
- Iroh: Experienced and wise. Also a good adviser
- Katara: because a powerful waterbender can get you a long way
- Toph: Because she is bad-ass
- Bumi: Because he is crazy like a rock and I like that.

You even got a little motivation for my choices

Grrr, !mrahil

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Well done. That's a solid list!

Scalenex said:

I went by the pictures and I thought the picture of Kyoshi was one of Suki's sisters in arms. Otherwise I would have put her on my list.

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They do look extremely similar.

Scalenex said:

I think it would be more interesting to take the three avatars out and then debate who should be in the team of six. I have a lot more trouble making up my mind if the Avatars are out.

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Okay, let's do this.

Removing the 3 avatars from the list of combatants!

In many ways I think this list is even easier to compile than the one in the original post. With the original layout, you had to assemble a team of 6 against a team of 14. With the three avatars removed, you can now choose the best 6 to take on only 11 adversaries.

My three non-avatar choices from my original list form the backbone and starting point for my new revised list. So we have (for the reasons previously mentioned):

• Iroh
• Toph
• Katara

The next two inclusions are very simple. With the Avatars removed the two strongest characters are Iroh and Ozai. I didn't need to include Ozai in my original list because I had Kyoshi, Roku, Aang and Iroh to deal with him. With the Avatars removed, his inclusion in my list is automatic. Next, I previously couldn't fit Combustion Man into my list, so I'll rectify that in this new list. Combustion Man is extremely powerful and also has a completely unique ability. He makes a perfect assassin-type character as his ability has great range and is nearly impossible to block. I can use him in my list to take out key enemy combatants, and more importantly, choosing him means that my team doesn't have to face him down. As such my next two choices are:

• Ozai
• Combustion Man

For my sixth and final pick I had considered Azula. Of the fighters remaining she is the most powerful and dangerous. However, she isn't quite the best fit for my existing my team. For one, I already have three firebenders in Iroh, Ozai and Combustion Man. Adding Azula would give me a powerhouse squad, but an unbalanced one in terms of both elements and offense/defense. Secondly, removing the avatars allows me to quickly enact my alternative "earth bending bunker strategy". So my final selection is...

• Bumi

That puts my final team at:

• Iroh
• Toph
• Katara
• Ozai
• Combustion Man
• Bumi

I've got Ozai and Combustion Man as my primary offensive elements. Katara, Bumi and Toph form my defense (unless there is a full moon in which case Katara assassinates Hama). Iroh is like the midfield of my team, lending his strengths in terms of offense or defense as needed.

This is pure powerhouse list and would easily stomp the opposing force. My team is completely dominant in terms of both firebending (Iroh + Ozai + Combustion Man >>> Azula + Zuko) and earthbending (Toph + Bumi >>>>> The Boulder). We do concede some ground in terms of waterbending, for as good as Katara is, she is outmatched by the combined power of Pakku, Hama and Huu. That won't matter though, as those characters will quickly fall to the likes of Ozai, Combustion Man and Iroh.

My teams' top priorities for elimination are:

1. The Boulder - not that he is the most fearsome, but once he is gone, my team has complete control over earthbending and the opposing team can't penetrate my earthbended stone bunker. Any single member of my team could take him out with ease.
2. Azula - the most dangerous enemy combatant (unless there is a full moon). She is an absolute killer. Ozai and Iroh are my best choices for taking her down. Ozai is just a straight up more powerful version of her, and Iroh destroys her in a lightning bending contest as he is the only one who can both produce lightning and redirect it.
3. Hama - Although Katara can body her even during a full moon, I'd still rather avoid that situation. Ozai, Iroh or Combustion Man can easily take her during any time that is not a full moon.

After those three are wiped out, the game is essentially over. The only benders they have left are Pakku, Zuko and Huu. They are completely inferior compared to the high level bending possessed by my team.

As for the non-benders, they are no threat at all. Like bringing a knife to a gun fight. First off, they can't get to me in my earthbended stone bunker. Second, they would be easily killed off by even one or two members of my squad. Ozai kills all five of them single-handily without breaking a sweat. Toph is another one of my team members who hard counters them as they simply can't beat her rock suit of armour (let's see Ty Lee try to pressure point stone!)... and as for Piandao, the mighty swordsman, it would be shame if someone metalbended his sword!!! Iroh could take all five and the same is true for Bumi. I'd just make sure to keep Katara away from Ty Lee.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

1. Iroh
2. Toph
3. Katara
4. Sokka
5. Ty Lee
6. I'm on the fence between Paku or Bumi for raw power or Suki because she is the only one who beat Sokka. Zuko is moderately tempting for his versatility. Also, Team Avatar version of Zuko never lost a fight.

I suppose if we remove the avatars it becomes 6 against 11 and it becomes a lot less difficult. To make it scarier, we'd have to add some more characters or put one generic avatar in the attacking force or better yet, add the Dai Li to the attacking force. Collectively the Dai Li are nasty even if individually they are pushovers.

Your logic is sound, but I think you are overestimating Ozai and underestimating the ones you didn't pick. My list would be very similar to yours.

Correct me if I'm wrong but we never see Ozai being powerful except when the comet is empowering him. He is usually hiding behind his army or hiding behind his daughter leading from the rear. I'm pretty sure Iroh could take him.

Chances are, he is probably more powerful than Azula since Azula modeled her life after his and Azula fears him. On this list, Ozai is arguably the worst team player. I'm going to argue that within the framework of the Avatar universe team work is key. I would not want Ozai on my team. As opposition, I think Ozai would either wait for everyone else to have their go or he would arrogantly take point. Either way, my team would end up fighting Ozai by himself.

Combustion Man can sort of take orders but he is not a great team player. Azula worked with a team well before her trio collapsed.

Now lets cover Hama. She is more than a one-trick pony with a killer move on the full moon.

NIGHTBRINGER said:

the battle takes place across a large area (let's say a 10km x 10km square area) that is equally beneficial for all benders. There are rivers, small lake, hills, forested areas and a small town.

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Assuming there is always something to bend, it's not a big deal, but she is very resourceful. Much like Katara when she water bended her own sweat, Hama is very resourceful and can find water where other benders would shrug their shoulders and say "No water, I guess I'm helpless". She can pull water from plants and the air. She is tenacious and cunning.

If the battle is over a big open space with benders wailing on each other, Hama is in the middle of the pack at best, but if intrigue and espionage is important as allies and enemies hide in a populated area, I would want Hama on my team. I probably don't want Hama on my team, but I'm not going to write her off as a nobody.

Combustion Man is powerful but he is not that smart, he has a pretty glaring Achille's heel, if he can be killed by a bonk to the forehead. Almost any of the non-benders are agile and accurate enough to apply said bonk to the forehead. Katara or Toph could probably do it.



For me, Iroh and Toph are obvious must includes. Toph is by far the most powerful earth bender. Iroh is a by a thin margin the most powerful fire bender and he is a good fighter and tactician.

Katara for healing and versatility.

Sokka is pretty much always on the winning side and Sokka at his peak his truly badass.

Ty Lee can nullify benders and/or bonk Combustion Man. Also, by separating Ty Lee from her trio, Azula would be unhinged and Mai would be lethargic making both easier to deal with.

Imrahil said:

Well, because you are so convincing.

My picks are:

- Aang: Obviously, and because I chose Aang I reasoned that all Avatars are embodied in him once entering the Avatar state. So I did not pick any other Avatars
- Ty Lee: Because like @Lizerd said, it is good to have a skilled non bender that can neutralize benders
- Iroh: Experienced and wise. Also a good adviser
- Katara: because a powerful waterbender can get you a long way
- Toph: Because she is bad-ass
- Bumi: Because he is crazy like a rock and I like that.

You even got a little motivation for my choices

Grrr, !mrahil

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From my previous list I only have to substitute Aang...

I think I will go with Azula because of her determination to a cause and her raw power.

Grrr, !mrahil

Disclaimer: for the duration of this post, I am excluding the avatars. So if I make statements like "strongest" or "best" I am doing so as compared to our remaining field of competitors without consideration of the avatars.

Scalenex said:

Your logic is sound, but I think you are overestimating Ozai and underestimating the ones you didn't pick. My list would be very similar to yours.

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Let's explore this one at a time, starting with your second point: underestimating the ones I didn't pick. Obviously I have to leave a few powerful characters out of my list but I assess their threat level relative to the abilities of the team I have defending me.

Threat level: HIGHEST

• Azula - I've already admitted that she is a huge threat, the single greatest threat outside of full moon Hama (which only occurs 1/60th of the time). She is fast and lethal. However, she is hard countered by Ozai (who is a superior version of her) and Iroh.
• Hama (full moon) - During a full moon she is the most dangerous member of the opposing force. We don't know the effective range of her bloodbending, but if in range she can arguably take out anyone on my team not counting Katara. Katara already proved she can break Hama's bloodbending, but Hama cannot do the same to Katara. I'm left with three counters against Hama. The most desirable option is to assassinate her before there is a full moon. I think anyone of my six defenders could do so, but especially Ozai, Iroh, Combustion Man and of course Katara. Option two is the Katara full moon counter. Finally, if Katara had fallen and there was a full moon, I'd have Bumi and Toph bunker myself and my team in the middle of the largest hill and simply wait out the full moon.

Threat level: HIGH

• Zuko - while he is weaker than Azula, he is still formidable. He is a capable fighter both with firebending and with his swords. That said, who on my team can he definitively beat?
• Pakku - a great waterbender who beat season 1 Katara. However, I wouldn't fancy his chances against season 3 Katara. He also gets stomped by the likes of Iroh and Ozai. To be fair, I'd also bet that Bumi and Toph could likely take him. Still he can't be underestimated.

Threat level: MODERATE

• Huu - the fact that he is very unorthodox makes him a threat. We do see him being able to tank a lot of incoming damage with his swamp bended "suit". However, we've also seen that those defenses can be overwhelmed. I don't fancy his chances tanking Combustion Man's combustive beam attack, which would punch right through him. Similarly, Ozai or Iroh have enough power to cut through his defenses very quickly. Also, by shows end Katara can waterbend water from plants, so she can counter him as well.
• Hama (no full moon) - she is a far weaker water bender than Katara. She is old and not shown to be all that elusive or mobile. She can't stand up to the superior firepower of my team if there is no full moon.
• Ty Lee - she is very dangerous up close, but needs to get awfully awfully close to have any sort of effect. The biggest threat she poses to my team is against Katara. So we'd just have to make sure that one of my other five defenders takes her on. She can't hurt Toph or Ozai. She will be easily overwhelmed by Iroh. Combustion Man out ranges her by about a kilometer. Bumi's earthbending is way too powerful for her.

Threat level: LOW

• The Boulder - I only put him here because his presence removes my team's monopoly on earthbending. That said, he is literally comic relief in the show. He is no match for any member of my team and 1 v 1 would be killed in moments.

Threat level: VERY LOW

• Piandao - guy with a sword. So we have a guy bringing a knife to a gun fight. Also, Toph can metal bend his sword.
• Sokka - another guy with a sword (and a boomerang). See above. Yes he landed a decisive hit against Combustion Man that one time, but Combustion Man was severely outnumbered and was taken unawares. If the fight were to go down hundreds of times, Combustion Man will prevail far more often. Also, how many seconds does he last against the likes of Ozai, Iroh, Bumi, Toph or Katara.
• Mai - now we're trading away a sword for throwing arrows/knives. I mean, come on.
• Suki - oh and now we have moved on to fans. Who amongst my team is she going to threaten?

Scalenex said:

but I think you are overestimating Ozai

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Scalenex said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but we never see Ozai being powerful except when the comet is empowering him. He is usually hiding behind his army or hiding behind his daughter leading from the rear. I'm pretty sure Iroh could take him.

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Only one fighter of the group has a fair chance against him, that is Iroh. Ozai has more innate bending power (we can both see this and the showrunner admitted this), but I think Iroh has a slightly more diverse skillset. Ozai is physically superior (especially in terms of agility and endurance) but Iroh is wiser. Ozai is offensively superior, while Iroh is defensively superior. The reason why I would personally give the nod to Iroh is that Iroh's lightning redirect completely neuters Ozai's normally superior lightning bending skills. So we're left with a situation where Iroh can fire lightning at Ozai but Ozai can't use lightning against Iroh. That said, it is a damn close match. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say that Iroh wins somewhere around 55 out of 100 fights. Of course, arguments have been made in the opposite direction.

However, if we are to speculate on the matchup, why not listen to the subject expert himself:

Zuko: "You can beat him and we'll be there to help."
Iroh: "Even if I did defeat Ozai and I don't know that I could..."

Iroh himself is unsure who would triumph in the matchup. There is literally no one more qualified to to weigh in on the subject. Iroh is both a firebending master and has extremely detailed knowledge of Ozai's ability. He may be extremely modest, but he is being sincere.


As for the Sozin's comet argument, it is true that we see little of him directly outside of the influence of the comet. That was obviously a design choice by the showrunners (and one of my favourite things about the show). They instead built him up in different ways. What matters though is that there is ample evidence showing that he is an absolute top tier bender:

• he is the big bad of the show... the Darth of Sidious of ATLA
• Iroh doesn't know if he could take him, and Iroh is the most badass non-avatar character in the show
• Azula fears him and modeled herself after him (as you mentioned)
• in the fire nation, where power and agni kai fights rule the day, we don't see anyone standing up to him. Not even a wiff of dissension until Zuko finally stands up to him during the Day of Black Sun.
• his reputation is known throughout the four kingdoms. That reputation is built upon something.
• none of the characters imagine for a second that anyone outside of Avatar Aang or Iroh would stand a chance. There is never a plan for Toph or Bumi or Katara to fight him.
• after Azula wastes the team's Black Sun opportunity and she realizes the eclipse is over, she tells the gang (Aang, Toph and Sokka) exactly where her father is. She has no fear that even the three of them could take him down. We're talking about a 3/4 trained avatar Aang (as he does not have fire bending mastered yet), arguably the most powerful earthbender in Toph and Sokka.
• Ozai's demonstration of firebending during Sozin's comet is more impressive than what we see from any of the other Firebenders (Iroh, Zuko, Jeong Jeong or Azula) during the same time period. It is more than reasonable to assume that his base level ability is still going to be stupendously high.

Scalenex said:

Assuming there is always something to bend, it's not a big deal, but she is very resourceful. Much like Katara when she water bended her own sweat, Hama is very resourceful and can find water where other benders would shrug their shoulders and say "No water, I guess I'm helpless". She can pull water from plants and the air. She is tenacious and cunning.

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But how much of a threat should I consider her as when she already got schooled by Katara. After having years to master the bloodbending technique and being at her full moon peak power, she lost to Katara who hadn't even learned the technique yet. Katara overpowered her bending with relative ease.

Remove the full moon and which of my defenders would you favour her against? Iroh? Ozai? Toph? Combustion Man? Bumi?

I'll grant you that she is extremely inventive and tenacious, but her base power level is simply too low compared to the elite benders defending me. Outside of Combustion Man (who is similarly an anomaly like her), all my benders are the absolute very best within their bending disciplines. Toph and Bumi are the best earthbenders. Iroh and Ozai are the very best firebenders. Katara is arguably the best waterbender.

Scalenex said:

Ty Lee can nullify benders and/or bonk Combustion Man.

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Maybe... if she gets close. He can kill her easily at range. A guy with a knife can kill a guy with a gun if he gets close enough, but we all know who we would favour. His Combustion attack is one of two attacks with the farthest range (the other being lightning).

Scalenex said:

Also, by separating Ty Lee from her trio, Azula would be unhinged and Mai would be lethargic making both easier to deal with.

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No, because of the of the first two rules of the contest...

• the 6 you choose to protect you will stop at nothing to do so. It is their sole consideration, above all else.
• the rest that will try to kill you will stop at nothing to do so. It is their sole consideration, above all else.

Killing/defending you is her sole consideration. She doesn't care about where the other two side in regards to this contest. Pre-existing alliances from the show don't factor in.