8th Ed. Slann - Arcane Slot

Its always been a hard choice but now its even harder.

Main contenders:
Channelling Rod with that awesome discipline
Dispel Scroll (if no skink caddy)
Earthing Rod (combined with adjust miscast)


The channelling rod seems so great with the extra dice its generating but passing on the very solid protection you get from the earthing rod and the adjust by 1 discipline its a hard choice.

I had a tourney yesterday that I had locked up as a massacre when on a 4 dice cast I get irresistible, sucked the slann into the warp and took everyone of my last 16 TG with me. Turned it into a minor win.
For 35 points to save that from happenning... probably worth it.

6 game tourney I'd say I suck the slann into the warp at least once.

Thoughts? Do you channel rod or do you earthing rod or something else?

I like the dispel scroll on the Slann with Wandering Deliberations. It keeps him relatively cheap, and I save points from not bringing a scroll caddy. Wandering Deliberations means that i'm normally only throwing two or three dice at each spell and not running a high risk of miscasting. Also, I feel that the 8 spells from Wandering is plenty for me to use up my dice. It isn't the most powerful (magically) way to field a Slann, but I think that this setup is very points efficient and allows you to also bring a tooled up Old Blood Cowboy (if you're into that kind of thing).

I've used the Channeling Staff so far and it's great, but I've also had a couple of bad miscasts despite mostly rolling 2 and 3 dice per spell and having Soul of Stone, so I'm starting to think I actually need the Earthing Rod more. But I would lose dice in both magic phases that way so maybe I should just keep the Slann out of the TG for as long as I can and not roll 3 or less.

Don't forget the Forbidden Rod. Between access to easy healing, lots of wounds, and the 4+ Ward save the wound cost is negligible for a big toad.

Lore Master High Magic and Power Scroll.
Forbidden Rod on sacrificial skink.

-Matt

I always go channeling rod plus discipline. The more pressure I can place on the dispel dice the better. I keep the toad cheap so whilst I hate seeing it pop from a miscast, the army is not lost without him.

The channeling staff plus Harmonic Convergence option is great bang for the buck (points cost). It will average 1 extra power dice or 1 extra dispel dice each magic phase, almost 30% the time it will generate no additional dice in any given phase and sometimes it will generate 2 dice (22.2%) or 3 dice (3.7%). Only 44.4% of the time will you general a single PD or DD in a given magic phase. With a Slann with 8 spells with one of the two disciplines, that is a huge boost when it comes, especially if you are using cheaper spells a lot, but it is not consistent.

If you go offensive, the soul of stone is a great choice because its cuts the two worst miscast consequences (2-4 and 10 to 12) odds in half. The earthing rod is a one-use only item, so you really need to use it with soul of stone and use it when you roll the worst miscasts or if the miscast changes the game.

The weakness of the LM army is the Slann getting either blown up or destroying so much of the TG unit on a miscast that the unit gets killed off and the Slann breaks and is run down. Unless one ran either cupped hands or lore of life (with throne of vines), the LM army in a tournament would average a loss every five rounds for this reason. You no longer have cupped hands and loremaster for common magic lores is taken away. Additionally, if th Slann is the BSB and the TG unit no longer has a champ or character to take challenges, then, until FAQed, the Slann is at risk of declining the challenge and being moved to the back of the unit nerfing the general and BSB boosts (the argument being that the second rank rule is only when the Slann joins the unit) and the BRB clearly says that a character unable to get to B2B contact in a challenge can still accept the challenge).

If the Slann is the general, BSB and costs an average of 400 points, then soul of stone plus esrthing rod is a huge value (about a two to one ratio of average value saved as opposed to points spent). I don't think earthing rod is as valuable without soul of stone.


Given the above, there is an argument for either diverisfying the army or investing in keeping that Slann alive or limiting its offensive magic. Keep the Slann cheap enough to run an oldblood, consider a separate BSB (not a great option), run at least one skink priest with a scroll or cube and use it to cast some spellls. We are seeing more armies with no Slann, running two skink priests, one with cube and one with dispel scroll, given how good the oldbloods can be for the army.

I've used the channeling staff and HC option several times now. I dunno why, but my luck fails me every time. We talk about getting ZERO extra dices and when I do, it's on a 6.

Likewise my steg have managed to fail me 3 times in a row with thunderstomp (three times I rolled a 1) followed by my bast getting 1. In the following round my steg finally got more than 1 attack off.. And obviously followed up by utterly failing again in the following round.

That's just my luck and it happens frequently. For whatever reason some of the strong points our army have (monsters, magic) seems to have the opposite effect on me.

For that reason I just doesn't bother when some of you tell tales of how the mighty C-staff and HC combo should average x amount of dice pr game, because for whatever reason the dice God have a strange way with me. And we're talking almost every single time.

45pts isn't much for what it's supposed to do, but I'd rather put those points in something a bit more.. stable

I used HC and earthing rod for my last two games, one with two skink priest, the other game with one, In those two games I rolled one successful channel! If I had used the channeling staff I would have gotten at least three (I remember as I rolled four dice, got three fives and a one in one magic phase). I suppose if you take the channeling staff you increase the chance of needing earthing rod. Next game I might go for a forbidden rod sacrificial lamb skink priest.

Just had a thought, the HC + CS has double the benefit because it can be used in your opponents magic phase too.

Yes, HC and channeling staff work in every magic phase. Given that 70% of the time in each magic phase that combo will generate at least one PD (in your phase) or one DD (int their magic phase) I don't see how it is possible to miss with this combo. In a five turn game, that is ten times the combon is used and should, on aveage, generate PD or DD in 7 out of ten magic phases and multiple PD or DD in 2 out of those 7 magic phases. I think you need to run soul of stone at least to cut the worst miscast risk with this combo, probably need soul of stone any time you expect to cast offensively a lot with the Slann unless you plan to throw only two dice at every spell.

I don't see running a suicide skink priest with the forbidden rod as being points efficient You will average only 3.5 dice with the rod and that comes out to almosty 30 points per PD given that the priest dies two-thirds of the time. It is actually more unreliable and more uneven than running the HC and channeling staff combo. You could run power stone for 2 PD and cast something useful with the priest and still have the skink priest to do something with throughout most of the game, inlcuding using to cast MM and DD through with the Slann and potentially controlling pursuits with predatory fighter models. There are those magic phases where the Slann misses badly and fails to cast and loses concentration and having a skink priest with two useful spells to throw those dice with is often helpful. Similarly, sometimes the Slann misses a dispel attempt and loses concentration or is blown up and having a lvl 2 backup for magic offense or defense pays off. I'd still probably run the cube or a scroll on a skink priest since you will usually use the scroll or cube (unless playing dwarves or limited magic lists) early.

In the new book you don't need to put the Slann in the Temple Guard.

When I user the channeling setup. I put my Slann close to the TG and go all out. Then with Sole of stone I can make sure not to hurt my Temple Guard.

With proper skink harassment you should be able to keep him save till turn 2 at least. And when needed go back into the Temple Guard.

This is my optimal Magic Build then:

Channel Rod, BSB, Std Disc
Extra Channel Disc
Reroll Miscast Disc (30 points to save your BSB General and Lvl 4 from rolling 2,3,4)
Loremaster High (Optional, but pretty awesome, 4 extras spells for 35 points)

Lvl 1 w scroll
(for arcane vassal, and either amber spear or wildform)

I think that comes to about 540 pts. Still feels like alot invested in magic but everything in there is good and don't think I'd want to cut anything.

I'm done with channeling.
I've tried it a lot, and I never had good luck with it. I thought I was just rolling poorly, so I hammered out the odds. Sadly, looks like I was rolling average.

Odds of getting Zero 5's and 6's: 29.6%
Odds of getting One 5 or 6: 44.4%
Odds of getting Two 5 or 6: 22.2%
Odds of getting Three 5 or 6: 3.7%

2 turns a game, you can expect to get nothing.
3 turns a game, you can expect to get 1 die.
1 turn a game, you can expect to get 2 dice.
Every 4 games, you can expect 3 dice.

The problem being, is that the effect of these extra dice weigh heavily on what you already rolled for winds of magic. If you roll 4,4 and have 8 dice, getting 2 more gives you 10 vs 4, which is AWESOME. If you roll 6,1 and have 7 dice, getting 2 more gives you 9 vs 6, which isn't nearly as good.

More often than not, the channeling doesn't make the difference.

On the other hand, having one awesome phase of power scroll, forbidden rod (or both), can pay off more than having 1 slightly better phase and 5 disappointing phases.
Seriously, if you're hoping for a 3.7% chance, then you should be fire balling the enemy generals unit to try and force a panic check. You'll see a general panic off the table about as often as you channel 3 dice.


I'm kind of bummed out about all this; I just finished my slaan-oracle conversion, and he won't be getting a lot of love.

-Matt

I still don't think trying to invest heavily in magic is a great plan this edition. It's highly random; even with power scroll and rod, your 1 awesome phase per game can still get blown up by a miscast, dispel scroll, or just a plain regular failure. And when you do get your 1 big phase off successfully, devastating a key unit and swinging the flow of the game, you usually could have gotten the same result if the points had been invested in a more reliable unit.

I'm still enjoying my ethereal battle slann (with dragonbane gem and warbanner). He's hard to kill, beats a lot of units that give us trouble, and can randomly mess up combat math with his slew of fairly-easy-to-cast buffs and heals.

Lizardmatt said:

I'm done with channeling.
I've tried it a lot, and I never had good luck with it. I thought I was just rolling poorly, so I hammered out the odds. Sadly, looks like I was rolling average.

Odds of getting Zero 5's and 6's: 29.6%
Odds of getting One 5 or 6: 44.4%
Odds of getting Two 5 or 6: 22.2%
Odds of getting Three 5 or 6: 3.7%

2 turns a game, you can expect to get nothing.
3 turns a game, you can expect to get 1 die.
1 turn a game, you can expect to get 2 dice.
Every 4 games, you can expect 3 dice.

Click to expand...

But don't forget, the channelling is also for Dispel Dice. A lizardman army with a D.scroll, cube and slann running the channelling setup isn't going to be suffering a whole lot of flak from the enemies magic phase unless they IF.

To me it's a different tactic. the channelling combo is about increasing your magic presence across all phases, both yours and the enemies (combine with Reservoir of Eldritch energy to skew this more in the PD direction). Whereas Forbidden Rod/ Power stone are all about you having 1 big phase to make-or-break a game, as is stacking miscast protection as that generally means you'll be throwing larger amounts of dice.

Which is better depends on how you want to focus your magic phases and can also be impacted on by the enemies magical defense/offense strategy.

Either channeling staff or forbidden rod with a healing lore. Rolling a 3 & 2 +d6 makes for an amazing magic phase against only 3 dispel dice.

Soul of Stone is all you need for a TG slann. You adjust rolls of 4, 7, 10. This makes getting sucked away or losing levels a 8.3% chance or little blast / s6 41.7%. (adds to 50%). A 7 can never happen. Earthing rod isn't necessary except to insure against the dimensional cascade.

I totally disagree with LizardMatt. The average of one extra dice for each magic phase (both offense and defense) is quite significant with the way winds of magic work. I already had run those odds, so i know that they are correct. As pointed out, I think tLizardMatt's discussion is missing the dispel dice side of the equation and also really underestimates how often even one extra PD or DD is the difference between getting a spell off or not and stopping an extra spell or not.

The forbidden rod is problematic because a miscast or loss in concentration can lead to wasting those extra dice. Also, you could roll a 1 or a 6 and end up either with minimal impact or with too many dice and too much risk. If I go that route, I'd prefer to use the power stone (which is cheaper and certain of delivering +2 PD dice at the right time). My sense is that one only pops the rod when the winds of magic are low or the difference between PD and DD is small and one really needs a spell to go off in that magic phase. That means risking the Slann too often or risking not even using the rod. In terms of total dice during the game, for only slightly more cost than the forbidden rod, one can generate an average on one extra PD when offense and one extra DD when defense every magic phase. That is a total of 5 PD and 5 DD throughout 5 rounds.

All that being said, relying so heavily on magic really puts the Slann into an aggressive offensive posture. You really need soul of stone to cut the risk of blowing up the slann in half. I'd consider pushing the rolls of 4 and 6 up by one (hitting every model in base contact with the Slann but not the Slann is slightly better than the round template hitting everey model touched by it, a 7 and a 6 both hit the same number of models in the TG unit but a 7 does not hit the Slann). Moving the 7 to 8 depends on the situation (taking out a skink priest with a scroll or cube or with two good spells and able to support the Slann is a risk). There are times when I would accept the 10 and not move the miscast roll to 9 (like late in the game to keep a skink priest from dying or, in some instances, when the Slann has loremaster and is still lvl 4 such that losing up to 3 of 8 spells and up to 3 levels is not so bad with a lvl 2 skink priest).

My bias and experience is that the oldblood is so good at balancing out the army that I temd to want to keep the Slann cheaper and simpler. That usually means one or two disciplines and not going with heavy offense of the channel staff and +2 channel discipline. Soul of stome and wandering deliiberations are just fine (lots of 2 and 3 dice casting attempts) and using a lvl 2 skink priest to cast some spells with some dice seem like a pretty good strategy. If one feels that a lot of miscasts are occurring or one chooses a lore which results in throwing a lot more dice at spells, then the earthing rod is in order. Keep the Slann at or under 400 ;points is my usual target. Save the scroll or cube for the skink priest.

I've not used it (preferring the channeling staff +2 dice approach) but has anyone given any thought to the Wand of Jet?

To be able to add d6 to a cast after the roll has been made could be massive in that one crucial phase...

laribold said:

I've not used it (preferring the channeling staff +2 dice approach) but has anyone given any thought to the Wand of Jet?

To be able to add d6 to a cast after the roll has been made could be massive in that one crucial phase...

Click to expand...

I have not used it, but I think it's much better than people think.
I think people look at the cost, and look at 1 use, and think, man, that's only 1 power die.
But if that one power dice saves you from breaking concentration, and get a 19+ fiery off, that's pretty huge.

-Matt