He has tooled his list a bit from the last battle, whereas I'd mostly kept mine the same with a banner change === Spoiler: Our lists Models [1999 pts] Warhammer: The Old World, Lizardmen === ++ Characters [754 pts] ++ Slann Mage-Priest [390 pts] - Hand weapon - Battle Standard Bearer - Ruby Ring of Ruin - Becalming Cogitation - Elementalism Saurus Oldblood [364 pts] - Great weapon - Scaly Skin (counts as heavy armor) - on Carnosaur - Talisman of Protection - Armour of Meteoric Iron ++ Core Units [842 pts] ++ 20 Temple Guard [366 pts] - Hand weapons - halberds - and shields - scaly skin (counts as heavy armour) - Revered Guardian (champion) [War Banner] - Standard bearer - Musician 19 Saurus Warrior [306 pts] - Thrusting spears and shields - scaly skin (counts as heavy armour) - Spawn Leader (champion) - Standard bearer - Musician 10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts] - Javelins and shields - calloused hides (counts as light armour) 10 Skink Skirmishers [55 pts] - Javelins and shields - calloused hides (counts as light armour) - The Vanguard 10 Skink Skirmishers [65 pts] - Hand weapons - Blowpipes - Light armour (Calloused hides) - Patrol Leader (champion) ++ Special Units [203 pts] ++ 4 Kroxigors [203 pts] - Great weapons - scaly skin (counts as heavy armour) - Ancient (champion) ++ Rare Units [200 pts] ++ 1 Troglodon (0-1 Stegadon or Troglodon per 1,000 points) [200 pts] - Venomous talons and venom spray - scaly skin (counts as heavy armour) - Skink Oracle with hand weapon (required) --- Created with "Old World Builder" [https://old-world-builder.com] === Beastmen Brayherds [1996 pts] Warhammer: ++ Characters [610 pts] ++ Beastlord [244 pts] - Hand weapon - Heavy armour - General - On foot - Luckstone - Charmed Shield - Pelt of the Dark Young - Horn of the First Beast - Gnarled Hide - Many-limbed Fiend Special Rules: Blood Rage, Brayhorn (General Only), Foe Render, Gaze of the Gods, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Primal Fury, Warband [Beastlord] M(5) WS(6) BS(3) S(5) T(5) W(3) I(5) A(4) Ld ( Great Bray-Shaman [230 pts] - Braystaff - Level 4 Wizard - On foot - Dispel Scroll - Talisman of Protection - Daemonology Special Rules: Braystaff, Gaze of the Gods, Lore of Beasts, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Primal Fury, Warband [Great Bray-Shaman] M(5) WS(5) BS(3) S(4) T(5) W(3) I(4) A(2) Ld ( Wargor [136 pts] - Hand weapon - Heavy armour - Shield - Battle Standard Bearer - On foot - Slug-skin Special Rules: Blood Rage, Brayhorn (General Only), Foe Render, Gaze of the Gods, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Primal Fury, Warband [Wargor] M(5) WS(5) BS(3) S(4) T(5) W(2) I(4) A(3) Ld(7) ++ Core Units [614 pts] ++ 28 Gor Herd [243 pts] - Hand weapons - Additional hand weapons - True-horn - Standard bearer [Vitriolic Totem] - Musician Special Rules: Bestial Charge, Blood Rage, Horde, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Move Through Cover, Open Order, Primal Fury, Skirmishers, Warband [Gor] M(5) WS(4) BS(2) S(3) T(4) W(1) I(3) A(1) Ld(6) [True-horn] M(5) WS(4) BS(2) S(3) T(4) W(1) I(3) A(2) Ld(7) Tuskgor Chariot [85 pts] - Bestigor Crew x 1 - Hand weapons - Great weaponss - Gor Crew x 1 - Hand weapon and cavalry spear - Tuskgor x 2 - Hand weapon (tusks) Special Rules: Close Order, First Charge, Impact Hits (D6+1), Mark of Chaos Undivided, Primal Fury, Razor Tusks, Warband [Chariot] M(-) WS(-) BS(-) S(5) T(4) W(4) I(-) A(-) Ld(-) [Bestigor Crew (x1)] M(-) WS(4) BS(3) S(4) T(-) W(-) I(4) A(1) Ld(7) [Gor Crew (x1)] M(-) WS(4) BS(3) S(3) T(-) W(-) I(3) A(1) Ld(7) [Tuskgor (x2)] M(7) WS(3) BS(-) S(4) T(-) W(-) I(2) A(1) Ld(-) Tuskgor Chariot [85 pts] - Bestigor Crew x 1 - Hand weapons - Great weaponss - Gor Crew x 1 - Hand weapon and cavalry spear - Tuskgor x 2 - Hand weapon (tusks) Special Rules: Close Order, First Charge, Impact Hits (D6+1), Mark of Chaos Undivided, Primal Fury, Razor Tusks, Warband [Chariot] M(-) WS(-) BS(-) S(5) T(4) W(4) I(-) A(-) Ld(-) [Bestigor Crew (x1)] M(-) WS(4) BS(3) S(4) T(-) W(-) I(4) A(1) Ld(7) [Gor Crew (x1)] M(-) WS(4) BS(3) S(3) T(-) W(-) I(3) A(1) Ld(7) [Tuskgor (x2)] M(7) WS(3) BS(-) S(4) T(-) W(-) I(2) A(1) Ld(-) 1 Razorgor Herd [52 pts] - Hand weapons (tusks) - Light armour (calloused hide) Special Rules: Armour Bane (1), Fear, Foe Render, Impact Hits (D3), Loner, Open Order, Primal Fury, Razor Tusks, Swiftstride [Razorgor] M(7) WS(3) BS(0) S(5) T(5) W(3) I(2) A(4) Ld(6) 10 Ungor Herd [57 pts] - Shortbows - Half-horn Special Rules: Chariot Runners, Horde, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Move Through Cover, Open Order, Primal Fury, Skirmishers, Warband [Ungor] M(5) WS(3) BS(3) S(3) T(3) W(1) I(3) A(1) Ld(5) [Half-horn] M(5) WS(3) BS(3) S(3) T(3) W(1) I(3) A(2) Ld(6) 10 Gor Herd [92 pts] - Hand weapons - Additional hand weapons - Ambushers - True-horn - Standard bearer Special Rules: Bestial Charge, Blood Rage, Horde, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Move Through Cover, Open Order, Primal Fury, Skirmishers, Warband [Gor] M(5) WS(4) BS(2) S(3) T(4) W(1) I(3) A(1) Ld(6) [True-horn] M(5) WS(4) BS(2) S(3) T(4) W(1) I(3) A(2) Ld(7) ++ Special Units [312 pts] ++ 6 Minotaur Herd [312 pts] - Hand weapon - Light armour - 6x Shield - Bloodkine - Standard bearer - Musician Special Rules: Blood Greed, Blood Rage, Bull-gors, Close Order, Fear, Foe Render, Impact Hits (1), Mark of Chaos Undivided, Motley Crew, Primal Fury, Warband [Minotaur] M(6) WS(4) BS(3) S(5) T(4) W(3) I(3) A(3) Ld(7) [Bloodkine] M(6) WS(4) BS(3) S(5) T(4) W(3) I(3) A(4) Ld(7) ++ Rare Units [460 pts] ++ Ghorgon [245 pts] - Cleaver-limbs - Light armour (calloused hide) Special Rules: Blood Greed, Close Order, Frenzy, Large Target, Primal Fury, Regeneration (6+), Stomp Attacks (D3), Stubborn, Swallow Whole, Terror, Timmm-berrr! [Ghorgon] M(7) WS(4) BS(0) S(6) T(6) W(6) I(4) A(5) Ld(9) Cygor [215 pts] - Hand weapon (claws) - Hurl attack - Light armour (calloused hide) Special Rules: Close Order, Ghostsight, Immune To Psychology, Large Target, Soul-eater, Stomp Attacks (D3), Stubborn, Terror, Timmm-berrr! [Cygor] M(7) WS(2) BS(1) S(6) T(5) W(6) I(3) A(4) Ld( --- Created with "Old World Builder" Deployment He had additional units which made this phase quite even. I was happy enough with the end of it, my plan was to harry with skinks on the left, set up some chain stand and shoots on the right, control with the Saurus blocks and let the carnosaur run rampant. Turn 1 me I moved up. Remembering arcane vassel was useful as the Troglodon could magic missile. Unfortunately 3D6 hits is 3, for the second time in a row (from last game). Generally poor shooting by all involved. Got the vortexs off and I'm restricting his movement very well. Turn 1 him So a massive blunder by me. I did not realise if they followed into you from pursuit you could not stand and shoot. He charged on the right and the blowpipes are sitting ducks, and certainly the javelins could have been used better. They are wiped out and the blowpipes are now in combat. However, some poor overruns means only chariot is and I'll get to charge. My Necro template helps a bit for primal fury. His deathstar unit crawls backwards scared of the carnosaur Turn 2 me My lizardmen charge the Gorgon. My carnosaur decides to go around, trusting the gap and the template to keep his deathstar out for now. My trog charges his skirmishers and thanks to the necro template, they flee from terror. The damn terrain stops me overruning! I rolled enough but the skirmers deal with going around things a lot easier. My shooting is abysmal. Just when I think luck will kill me and all is lost, the Gorgon can't primal fury due to my template and my spearmen pull off an upset tie/win with the Gorgon. Thanks to my Necro template, he brakes! This template rocks. They are positioned in such a way that I don't have a chance of catching, but I overrun into the minotaurs and at least avoid impact hits. My blowpipes are wiped out and he follows into my krox with bis razorgor . That will be an important battle as they get impact hits, if I can last I should win. Turn 2 him His ambushers arrive on the flank. The minotaur beat the spearmen and the spearmen FBIGO. The Kroxigor take two wounds. They do one wound on one side of the combat on the other the Krox manage 2 wounds... Of course he has 2x6+ saves... And hits both! We lose by 1 and then the Kroxigor totally break and are caught and killed. Dreadful luck there, potentially game breaking. The chariot charges the Troglodon and wins but the troglodon is on 2 wounds and gives ground. They are blocking my temple guard, in retrospect I should have used stubborn. Turn 3 me My spearmen charge and the carnosaur flank charges the minotaurs and we easily win and wipe them out. Our positioning now isn't great, I rolled a 17 for the carnosaurs chase. Perhaps this was a bad call but I had PTSD of how brutal they were last game. The troglodon somehow manages to get off hammerhands and wipes the chariot out. We follow up into the skirmishers. We are hoping that giant thing will fail its charge but that is very unlikely. Turn 3 him The giant charges. His chariot and razorgor move back in. His gorgon moves around the centre. The troglodon dies and the gian follows up into the temple guard. Turn 4 me I try to move into position with my carnosaur. My shooting is again terrible. My temple guard do a wound or two and the giant gives ground. We follow up into combat to avoid their charge next turn. Frustrating that I have to deal with two at once. The TG are likely to die. I decide to go for broke, my Slann moves into range of his caster, I need to do 3 wounds with 3d6 st2 wounds. Or even 2 might work, maybe, if we end up in combat. However, I only do 1 wound. I don't think this was a bad play (I had to do something to rescue the game) but I should have moved further back to make the charge a lot harder. Turn 4 him The template is dispelled and the two magic users are now locked in battle. Another big result, his ambusers manage the 4 they need charging through difficult terrain and with a rear charge in the TG I think they are going to get wiped. The beastmen unit are ridiculous. -1 to hit, poison attacks, extra hand weapons, primal fury (rerolling 1's to hit). This would beat my elite infantry 1v1 I reckon. The unit is wiped out. My shooting still sucks. Turn 5 me The magic users battle on, its not going well its a matter of time before the Slann is dead. The carnosaur charges his deathstar. Can I wipe it out and give me hope? I issue a challenge. His lord!!! Is -1 to hit with a 2+ save. I do a couple of wounds but I lose combat. I FBIGO but to be honest, I think we mucked that up. His unit strength would have been double me so probably I should have broken. Although I would have rerolled it I guess with the BSB in range so who knows. My skinks take down that giant/rock lobber thing. I offer to concede at this point but he wants to play through. Turn 5 him His Gorgon actually charges the carnosaur solo and loses combat. The chariot charges my spearmen, kill them and follows into my carnosaur. So does his deathstar. The Slann dies. Turn 6 onwards- The carnosaur wont die in combat but it loses by combat resolution and breaks and is caught. I do the last wound against his lord at least. Everything is dead, except those skinks. Lessons: I don't feel as though I had bad luck. It's true that a few game changing calls went his way, double sixes for the Kroxigor and making his charge to rear my temple guard, and the initial combat with the lord. But also my magic was decent and the spearmen really did great job against the Gorgon. But I just felt outclassed the entire game. Clearly my list was no where near his, and my placement this game didn't help as 2/3 of my skinks couldn't get going. Luke Blaxhill said "I've never claimed a rank bonus in the old world and I don't intend to start" and he is right, infantry is garbage. Especially when you're elite infantry is totally outclassed by his stock infantry. Getting 3 poison attacks (frenzy and additional hand weapons) when the entire unit is -1 to hit with a higher initiative. In fact the initiative is really the killer, you wipe out the front row you win. It's true that a lot of my list is on the "fun" side with my troglodon and unit blocks, and even the Slann. But I think I lose this game 99/100 games. And I don't think his list is tournament level, e.g. dealing with double dragons. But not going that far, changes will need to be made, perhaps the temple guard gone, ethereal added to the Slann, and the points spent on a bastiladon (stegadon are better but I don't have the model). That nerf to the Slann really has stripped a lot of fun out of our army list for me. My opponent thinks I need to support the infantry with more heros. Maybe. Will think about that. Necromancy is over for me too. The vortex is incredible and the magic missile is also excellent. But the -2 ld hex happens too late in the turn to help with terror. Combined with having to take a lore familiar, I just don't think it's viable.
Eyy, thanks for the battle report! Happy to see Troglodon on the field again. Only 'weird' thing about your list is the Saurus Oldblood with 50pts worth of magic items, would like to see it pumped up to 100. I think this game was a great example of how weak our Saurus infantry really is. I pretty much only use them as counter punch units. TG can be a decent as they work as an anvil unit as well but you're paying premium price for that. Kroxigor have managed to disappoint me every time I've taken them. I feel like even if you get them in combat against intended targets they still under perform. They just take wounds too easily and then you lose combat res. I don't see your point about -2LD hex happening too late in the turn? Aren't hexes like the first thing in the turn that happens?
Yes I had that backwards in my head when writing the report. The vortex was only good at the start because it hung around, which doesn't always happen. The hex was good for charging with terror. It doesn't change my overall opinion that necromancy isn't viable, it just means I had 3 "decent" spells. The Krox being easier to wound than Saurus drive me nuts. But with the 3 wounds is means they are likely to strike back at least... Edit you are making me rethink abandoning Necro. Add another bastiladon, if ethereal the Slann isn't bound by the TG and can try to drift out of range for the vortex... Edit 2 - I'm remembering! That's how I broke those skirmishers with the trog! Arcane Vassel then a charge
I think Necromancy has potential. It certainly isn't the strongest lore, but it's a great way to spice up a list every now and then. Too bad there's a few duds in the spells so you're pretty much forced to run lore familiar. Would love to try to combo the necro debuffs with battle magic (force panic test) or illusion (mind razor) but there's just no way to guarantee you get the correct spells.
Yeah. The question could be looked at "is necromancy with a lore familiar better than elementalism with a ruby ring of ruin?" That is easy to answer. But I like running a unique list. Of course there are a few armies that are entirely immune to psychology which goes a long way to negating how effective it is. Also to address the 50 points on the carnosaur, the reason for that is because I am trying to make my list "fun" and was concerned about running an ogre blade/revered blade with it could make it too unstoppable. I feel like the current build for the COB is quite good because it is definitely strong but also manageable for the opponent. I am sure I will buff it up in some games but it's not a priority to me.