Last night I got in a game or Warhammer with Ryan. He brought 2150 pts. of High Elves to attack my 2150 pts. of Lizardmen. His list was: Eltharion on Stormwing Mage level 2- Steed - Ring of Fury, Silver Wand Mage level 2 - Steed - Dispel Scroll, Jewel of the Dusk Noble - DA, Lance, Barded Steed - Reaver Bow, Enchanted Shield 10 Archers 10 Lothern Sea Guard 10 Lothern Sea Guard 5 Ellyrian Reavers 5 Silver helms 5 Dragon Princes 1 Great Eagle 2 Repeater Bolt Throwers 5 Shadow Warriors My list was: Old Blood on Carnosaur Skink Priest on Engine of the Gods Skink Priest Scar Vet 11 Skink Skirmishers with Blowpipes 11 Skink Skirmishers with Blowpipes 11 Skink Skirmishers with Blowpipes 3 Terradons 3 Kroxigors 1 Stegadon 1 Salamander with an extra handler 1 Salamander with an extra handler I rolled Second sign of Amul on my lone Skink Priest and I got Comet of Cassondora and Celestial Shield for my Skink Priest on the Engine of the Gods. He rolled Drain Life and Dark Hand of Death on Eltharion. The Mage with 3 spells had Courage of Aenarion, Flames of the Phoenix and Vaul's Unmaking and the Mage with two 2 spells had Shield of Saphery and Flames of the Phoenix. The deployment looked like this: After deployment I nominated Eltharion for my Bane Head Target. I made a general advance with most of my units. A dumb thing I did was get my Old Blood outside of my Fambaa shield generator The magic phase was uneventful. I didn't get my reroll or the comet off and I saved my other two dice for the Diadem. The only shooting I got off was one death on the Shadow Warriors from a salamander. The Bolt Thower whiffed big time as expected. The one death on the Shadow Warriors did cause a panic though. The High Elves advanced their cavalry and set up a great eagle to redirect my Krox right into the forest. I didn't like that so much. The magic wasn't too rough on me the first turn, but losing a terradon before they dropped rocks and spooking them out of the game for a turn was pretty annoying. The shooting this round was tough on me. My foolish move out of the EotG bubble left my Old Blood on Carno vulnerable, but luckily he is tough and survived with 3 wounds placed on the Carno and none on the well protected Old Blood. The really hurtful thing that happened this turn though was his specially trained sniper bolt thrower operators were once again able to snipe my Skink Priest off the top of the EotG on the first turn. I charged thd DPs with my Old Blood and they fled. I also charged Eltharion with my Scar Vet out of the Krox unit and my EotG. Eltharion also fled. I left my Krox where they were so they wouldn't be stuck in the forest for a while. I figured my Skinks could take care of him. I ended up using my skinks on the left to redirect the silver helms and moved some other skinks to protect my Carnosaur from the bolt throwers. Shooting was fairly uneventful for me this turn except for the obvious bird slaughtered by 22 poison darts. This movement phase was great for me as his DPs failed to rally and left the game!!! Elthatrion did rally though, I couldn't get that lucky He charged my Skinks with the silver helms and the Shadow Warriors engaged my Salamander in the forest. The HE magic was luckily not too terrible for me this turn even though I lost a lot of defense. It did hurt a salamander with Flames of the Phoenix. His shooting was once again fairly brutal. I knew I was in trouble leaving my Scar Vet out in the open like that, but the chance to catch Eltharion was so tempting and cathing him would have been so awesome. So I lost my Scar Vet and took some more wounds in a few places. We had our first combats this turn and neither of them were ones that I chose which usually doesn't bode well, but I liked the Salamander match up. The Skinks were decimated as I anticipated, but they took the Silver Helms South which I liked. The Salamander ended up taking a wound and not causing any So combat drew and we went to the next turn. Turn 3 movement saw no charges from me unfortunately, but I jockeyd for better position. Shooting was basically a wash this turn. I killed a few elves but ate a few Skinks. I did have an interesting situation come up though where the rules are a bit vague. The Salamanders say they are not monsters, but they take a leadership test if all the handlers are killed. If they fail that test they are supposed to roll on the monster reaction table. Can they use the general's leadership? We ended up rolling for it. My opponent thought that they couldn't because under the monster rules for slain rider it says they have to use their own, but I though they could maybe use the generals, since their rule specifically states that they are not monsters, that would mean the monster rules wouldn't apply to them and they would treat it like any other leadership test. Combat between the Salamander and Shadow Warriors saw them trade blows, so I won combat, but they held. It was too bad we didn't trade blows last time or I didn't get one more wound in this time, because then I could have auto broke him with my fear. I was mostly just sick of having my flaming fear causer tied up in combat so long. I got charged a bit this turn, but both the bolt thrower crews cowered in fear at the sight of my mighty dinos. This round of magic was farily devestating for me as Eltharion got off Drain life in the midst of a bunch of my units. The worst parts were taking out half the Krox unit before it got a chance to fight Eltharion and taking out the Salamander before another combat wasn't nice either. I really didn't appreciate my last remaining vestige of magic defense being blown up either. That skink priest had a scroll too and would have used it if not for the double sixes on three dice Thanks to the failed terror test this round of shoting wasn't very rough on me. Thanks to the spell my skinks were slaugtered withouth the protection of the salamander and the Krox were at a terrible disadvantage in combat and ran down. Great success! My Old Blood got into Combat. My ancient Stegadon ran some LSG off the board and I dropped 5 strength 4 rocks on Eltharion. I don't remember if any wounds made it throught from the rocks, but I do know what remained after shooting. This was a fun round of shooting. All told Eltharion took 5 hits from the rocks at the end of the movement phase, 6 poisoned javelins, one poisoned bolt and 22 poisoned darts! This killed Eltharion and left Stormwing very bloody with only one wound remaining. Combat on turn 4 saw my Old blood decimate his LSG as he used my skinks in battle to get some combat res. It wasn't enough. Two skinks remained and my old blood ran through their position. One Bolt Thrower crew rallied, but the other continued to flee. Stormwing stumbled forward stupidly thanks to his monster reaction table roll. His reavers charged my two skinks, and those dang Shadow Warriors were still harassing me as they dove into my skinks that were just finishing celebrating the demise of the enemy genereal. The SHs tried to close on my Old Blood as well. I weathered this magic phase pretty well. Shooting was also fairly tame thanks to the running BTs and all the LSG had been eliminated. The Reavers tore through my skinks which was no big surprise, however I thought my skinks would have done better vs. the Shadow Warriors, but they couldn't hit at all and ended up getting ran through. My frenzied Carnosaur had to charge the bolt thrower crew and that forced them to flee off the board. My Stegadon decided to take care of those pesky Shadow Warriors. My turn 5 shooting did nothing for me. I was hoping to get one poison javelin to hit on Stormwing, but alas that didn't occur. Combat was good for me this turn though as my Stegadon dispatched the rest of the Shadow Warriors. Nothing major this movement phase just some jockeying for position and Stormwing getting the heck out of Dodge. Mor uneventful shooting. My Old Blood and Carnosaur were deflecting any thing that hit them with their armor, and everyonce in a while the Old Blood would even need the power of the old ones to save him in the form of a pretty necklace. Magic wasn't fun this turn as my Terradons got torn up. I attempted to charge Stormwing with my last Slamander. I was hoping I would get the last wound on him before he could swing back, but I failed my fear test and sat still. The rest of my movement was just to be prepared solidify the table quarter I was in as I couldn't get to any ohters. Stormwing charged my Salamander and the rest of his units solidified two table quarters. Stormwing charged in at the end, but was unable to connect and the Salamander got to remove that last wound anyway! The day ended in a draw with both sides looking pretty worse for wear. It was a great game and I think I learned a bit more from it. One other question that came up was moving salamander hunting packs through the woods. They do not suffer a movement penalty since they are skirmished, right? We though so, but we weren't sure if there was a rule like the shooting rule?
Salamanders are classified as skirmishing units, so yes they move through woods that way. The Terradons didn't really get to do much, the drop rocks (and the terradons in general) probably would have come in handy to take out the bolt thrower crews. Another great target for them would have been the shadow warriors with the drop rocks. The rocks automatically hit, so 3d3 str 4 hits has a decent shot at wiping out that little unit which later proved problematic. Then the terradons could also have used the forest as a hiding spot and you'd have more skinks to shoot at the big guy.
Thanks for sharing the battle with us Jormi. I didn't get a chance to read it until I was at a slow point in my job today. You have a great level of detail which made it enjoyable, also the diagrams were great. I couldn't help but notice that your Scar Veteran started out in a unit of Kroxigors. I may be wrong about this but I did a bit of research and I think that because Kroxigors are on a 40mm base that a character is not allowed to join them (I've never seen it done before either). The rulebook says gives a list of units that a character can join and a Kroxigor type unit isn't one of them. Where did you get the idea for him to join that unit? I also read the question about the Salamander whose handlers were killed. I can't find a good reason in the rules to use the general's leadership at all. Unfourtunately, I believe the Salamander's leadership must be used for this test. Although an agument could be made that the generals leadership can be used because the rules only say "Make a leadership test", these creatures are hardly tame to begin with (hence the reason they need handlers) and would not very much benefit from a general. From a fluff standpoint that makes sense I guess. From a game mechanics standpoint, someone who can dig deeper into the rules will need to give you a better answer. For the time being, since you and your opponent weren't sure, it was best to roll on it.
I would have sent the Terradons after the bolt throwers if I they hadn't of gotten scared off first, but the rocks I think may have done a wound or two on Eltharion. I just didn't remember out of the whole barrage that turn which things actually wounded.
Thanks for the comments. I guess I don't see where it says a Scar Vet can't join a unit of Kroxigor. Under characters joining a unit in the rule book it says they can join a unit of infantry, cavalry, unit of chariots or a war machine crew, but not a monster, single chariot, unit of flyers or another character. I don't see anything about where base size has a bearing. As for the general's leadership. I just looked up the rule in the book and it said that any friendly unit in 12 inches always use the generals leadership for any leadership test unless they have a higher leadership. The rules in the lizardmen book for salamanders say that if all the skinks are eliminated, the salamanders have to make a leadership test. I guess fluff wise I am not sure if rolling on the monster reaction table would make much sense for them at all, as they are probably not going to guard the dead bodies of the skinks that were just poking them with sticks to make them irate, but that is how they made it work.
Jormi, you're absolutely right about what you read in the rules. The Salamander question I think should be handled by someone who has more experience with the rules. I'll ask my group next time we play to see if any of the 'vets' there will know, or have a good idea. I'm wondering about it just as much as you anyways. As far as the SV in a Krox unit, once again you're right about what you read in the rules. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm not entirely convinced that Kroxigor count as infantry. The reason why I've thought that is that they're on a 40mm monster base and not 20-25mm bases. When I looked up the definition of Infantry in the rules though, I was surprised to find that some infantry is mounted on 40mm bases. After looking at the rules for Kroxigors in the army book, there is nothing that gives the indication that they're a monster. So after searching everywhere (including the character rules), I couldn't find any reason why a character can't join a unit of Kroxigors. It looks like they count as infantry.
From what I have read, it appears that the rules would state that the Salamander would test on the general's leadership, but let me know what the vets say, as I could be missing something. Yeah, I could see where the Krox would seem like monsters or something, but being the back breaking labor force of the Lizardmen, I am sure they are used to having Scar Vets working with them and wouldn't mind them joining them in battle. Also, if the 40mm base prevented them from allowing characters to join them, the OK wouldn't be able to put characters into anything but their knob units, AHH!
I can see where the confusion on this comes in, but it is actually pretty clear. The confusion comes from this: However, now we need to look at the Salamander unit entry and it states: Key points here. 1. Salamanders are *not* monsters. Nor are they Monstrous Mounts (which is all the first quote actually applies to). 2. They take the Leadership test before factoring anything about the "Monster Reaction table" in. So, you treat them exactly as they are, a normal unit. If they fail a Leadership test (which can, just as with all units, use the General's leadership) then you roll on the Monster Reaction table for an action. They are not monsters (which doesnt matter anyway). They are not monstrous mounts. You can definitely use the General's leadership.
Thanks for the affirmation. I sent your post to my friend and he seemed to think it was logical as well.