The first RL tournament after lockdown is coming up and I have access to any unit I want no more. So that't what I'm trying to do with models I have. Spoiler: FoS with Salamanders Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Fangs of Sotek Leaders Lord Kroak (320) - Spell: Stellar Tempest Slann Starmaster (260) - General - Command Trait: Vast Intellect - Stellar Tempest - Spell: Celestial Equilibrium Skink Starpriest (120) - Spell: Hand of Glory Skink Priest (70) Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140) - Artefact: Serpent God Dagger Battleline 40 x Skinks (240) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (60) - Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (60) - Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers Units 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (330) 12 x Salamander Hunting Pack (330) Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs Balewind Vortex (40) Total: 1970 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 124 I don't onw guard yet, but I may borrow some from fellow players. The fact is that our meta doesn't have much CoS. A couple of tzeentch and SC, but lots of death. I doubt that I really should bother with guard that much, I don't know. The second list is Coalesced. Modification of my thunderquake list. Spoiler: TQTH with Skinks Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Thunder Lizard Leaders Lord Kroak (320) - Spell: Stellar Tempest Engine of the Gods (260) - Artefact: Cloak of Feathers Skink Starpriest (120) - Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration - Spell: Celestial Harmony Skink Priest (70) - General - Command Trait: Master of Star Rituals Battleline 40 x Skinks (240) - Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (60) - Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers 10 x Skinks (60) - Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers Units 8 x Salamander Hunting Pack (220) Behemoths Bastiladon (220) - Weapon: Solar Engine Bastiladon (220) - Weapon: Solar Engine Battalions Thunderquake Temple-host (150) Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs Bound The Burning Head (40) Total: 1980 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 1 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 119 I would like to field my Sunclaw+Thunderquake list, but the problem is I don't own stega chief and I have only 30 saurus to fill the battleline. If I happen to summon 10 saurus turn 1, this would be a waste. So I'll try to experiment with Firelance. Spoiler: Firelance+Thunderquake Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Thunder Lizard Leaders Lord Kroak (320) - Spell: Stellar Tempest Engine of the Gods (260) - Artefact: Cloak of Feathers Skink Priest (70) - Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (210) - General - War Spear - Command Trait: Prime Warbeast - Artefact: Blade of Realities Battleline 5 x Saurus Knights (100) - Lances 5 x Saurus Knights (100) - Lances 5 x Saurus Knights (100) - Lances Units 4 x Razordon Hunting Pack (80) Behemoths Bastiladon (220) - Weapon: Solar Engine Bastiladon (220) - Weapon: Solar Engine Battalions Thunderquake Temple-host (150) Firelance Temple-host (160) Total: 1990 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 2 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 91 Which of the list is the best in more death-heavy meta (OBR included)? Main high-tier contenders are tzeentch and other seraphon.
Im a big fan of the second list, although not entire sold on the Bound Burning Head. I think it kind of restricts the movement of your Bastiladons, as in you cant really split them and put them in different locations on the battlefield. I guess it is less of an issue when you dont have LoSaT. 40 pts is kinda cheap though, so even if 1 guy benefits from it for multiple turns it is probably worth it anyways. I dont really like the Salamanders and I think you have too little reach to hit the important stuff, especially against Tzeentch. Your Bastiladons need to whiff real hard for Tzeentch to have a proper chance imo against such a list. Even against FEC double shooting Bastiladons are crazy, especially since they can sit in the back behind Skinks and remove Terrorgeists from turn 1. Salamanders cant do this in the same way without exposing themselves. Against OBR the Bastiladons could start removing a Crawler per turn from turn 1. From my experience the Crawlers is the only thing keeping them on the table and they have no real way of preventing them being blasted by Bastiladons. I also dont think you "need" Guards at all from my recent (limited) experience on the table. It is actually beneficial for me to have my opponent baited into focusing on Kroak when in reality the thing winning games are the Skinks and Skink heroes.
Thanks for the reply! I just filled my points with the head. IDK, how to use them. I find having rerolls of one, but I won't give up positions just to obtain rerolls. I also can take balewind, but IDK if giving up mobility on kroak is worth it. He can sometimes run up to a point and take it. No teleporting here. I liked a unit of 3 in second list, but now they are two expensive. I still have to fill the slot and I don't have kroxigors. Razordons are still don't impress me. Besides, they are still good if I need some Rend -2 or additional mortal wounds. I have the same impression. Yeah, they saved me a couple of games, but still there were lots of games where I did fine without them. I also thought about adapting your double bastiladon FoS list, but I don't have so much skinks.
Im personally not a huge fan of the EotG - I can see the healing on paper being reasonable to keep the Bastiladons healthy and summoning 10 Warriors is great when it happens, I just find it too unreliable. I think I would consider switching the EotG for a Steggy Chief. You could then scrap the Burning Head and slot in Bound Geminids and you would be 2.000 on the nose. A Steggy Chief with Prime Warbeast and the Great Drake (its the attack constellation right?) is no joke, especially if you have Cloak of Feathers ontop. You lose the free CP from the Skink Priest, but it would introduce another significant threat imo. You probably dont need the +1 cast/unbind constellation 24/7 when Kroak is only gonna be casting Stellar Tempest, Comet's Call and Mystic Shield. I mean Salamanders are brutal damage wise, but yeah I find them too expensive now. I much prefer Skinks for high damage output/bodies for objectives or Bastiladons for long range sniping. I havent toyed around with Razordons or Kroxigors, but I could see a single Razordon in TQ just to fulfill the batallion if you need those 30 pts for something else. Honestly I think the TQ version might be stronger overall due to Scaly Skin and the option of double tapping the Bastiladons. It reduces the damage a lot from KO and Tzeentch flamers. It also means at least 2 hits from Crawlers have to go through for you to lose a Skink Starpriest. I just really like the summoning and teleporting stuff you can do in Fangs of Sotek, and the Parting Shot ability is quite bonkers on fully juiced up 40 man Skink blobs. I feel you on the Skinks part - I dont have 100 Skinks painted up either, but luckily I can borrow some from my friend.
I would like to, but I don't have steggies yet. Only single EotG. Besides, despite often rolling useless results, he is still nice combatant. I think, he is essential in my dual battalion, since I'm very low on bodies and any chance can help, but when I have 40 skinks, it isn't much of a problem. I am going to experiment with Chief in TTS until I get a model. But I definitely like him more at 20 pts discount. it means a lot in AoS, where every point values is divisible by 10. I have only 60 boys and, honestly, don't want to get much more. They are a pain to assemble and paint for me.
Played against Mortis Praetorians with list 2. Katakros Soulmasson Boneshaper 2x20 Guard with spears 1x10 guard with spears Mortek Crawler Harvester Bird and Skeleton spells By turn 3 we almost annihilated each other, but I had lead in points. We discussed the game and he couldn't outscore me. I still like the list, missing one salamander though. Otherwise 5 attacks from a body is great. Despite everything, I still miss CP. Brooch was a lot of help. I even think about ditching salamaners in future iterations and taking Penumbral engine+3 kroxigors to try and get more CP. I think, I didn't doubletap a bastiladon once. I also think that hand of glory on starpriest is better, because: 1)it works for two phases; 2)if skinks and salamanders are dead, harmony is useless. Bastiladons and EotG could still benifit from it. Otherwise I'm content. Burning head indeed helped once and gave rerolls to bastiladons, which wiped the last guard unit. EotG was holding against mortek unit for 4 phases without any buffs. Bastiladons are great at pinning enemy units down. You need not to kill anything - kill opponent's battlelines with double lasers and pin down scary stuff. Also, new Ghur CA is great, as well as cast. I always chose Ghur now, when I win the roll-off for realms. You can put bastiladon with single wound back to 1++ or buff EotG. Anyway, lists my be the not most competitive, but surely a lot of fun.
What did you focus spells/shooting on in the first couple of turns? And yeah Hand of Glory is great! Also saves you a CP. Its especially good on Skinks in Fangs of Sotek since it rerolls in your shooting phase, in the opponent's charge phase (Parting Shot) and if he gets a double turn, it still works in his coming charge phase together with all the other buffs.
I didn't prioritize targets well turn 1, but from turn 2+ I concentrated on mortek guard. He misplaced Harvester and didn't have 4+ revive for a turn or 2. I tried to bracket Katakros, but he just healed too quickly on his turn and it wasn't much. Another interesing point on new ossiarch is that they want to take first turn to use Katakros' ability for +1 to saves. It allows to read their actions very easy. If you deploy agressively but not too much, just to deny possibility to alpha-strike you, you are forcing ossiarch to take first turn. Without +1 save, Mortek can be easily annihilated and OBR player won't have much to fight for objectives. Yeah, Harmony has its pros, but I'll try hand of glory too.
I dont have tons of experience with OBR (think I have had like 5 games vs them) but I would probably have killed the Boneshaper asap with magic + some Bastiladon shots, then focused remaining firepower into the Crawler turn 1. You dont even have to kill it tbh. If you deal enough wounds to it he probably dont want to use his CPs to make it shoot an additional time and once it goes down to 2-3 damage a shot your support heroes are suddenly rather safe. He can heal it with with Katakros but it is only 3 wounds a turn. Never played against a Harvester - The OBR guys around here dont play him and prefer the Arkhan + Katakros combo. A technical 4+ DRP on the Mortek Guard sounds annoying to have to deal with. I think turn 2 I would have focused on thinning out the Mortek with magic but used the Bastiladons to remove the Harvester. From turn 3 and onwards its just a matter of removing as many Mortek Guard as possible to outscore on objectives. Thats why I really like Fangs though - You can claim the objectives early on and do a ton of damage while having your frontline of Skinks 3,5" from the objectives, when the enemy then tries to grab the objectives you get to shoot again and if you get to retreat his pile-in move wont be enough to get onto the objectives. This buys you some time. I think I would completely ignore Katakros. He got a 3+ save, 2+ with his ability and like 20 wounds from what a recall. Not impossible to kill, but I think you are using too much firepower in removing this single model, that I would probably rather use that damage to remove a full 20 man unit of Mortek. Im really torn about if Kroak alone is enough CP generation to fuel either FoS or TL. The extra Slann feels like a waste sometimes, but CPs are just so good and worthwhile in our book.
Yeah, I played against OBR quite a few times, before my buddy moved to another town. They were super-easy with salamanders. After Petrifex nerf, they should be even easier with Starborne. They don't have enough bodies to screen properly and, actually, rather fragile with 4+ save. If you deal enough damage to Katakros, his CA range will be reduced to 18" and he will lose other nasty abilities, like -1 to-hit and deny CP (the latter is very painful to TL). But by focus-firing guard I just denied him possibility to hold objectives. Mortek guard are still one wound each and die pretty quickly. As for Crawler - the thing is his stelle attack becomes stronger when it is low on wounds. He could one-shot kroak with it with ease. I prefere either go for kill or swallow it's damage. The best way is to saturate it with possible targets. When all heroes and skinks and salamanders are in range, it is tricky to make right desicion, which one to shoot. Yes, but Harvester gives pseudo 4+ FnP. If my opponent doesn't bring a Harvester, I can easily focus-fire mortek. Bastiladons should have enough damage to bring down a unit per turn, unless it is 40 bodies. But if it is, stellar tempest will rock. Slann is nice in starborne, because he adds CCP, another summoning beacon and his traits are nice, both in DT and generic one. But I feel, he'd be a bit of a waste in TL list. I need to find 260 points for him. If I drop burning head and replace a salamander with razordon, I will find 200 pts. Still not enough, unfortunately. And at this point I'll have to sacrifice something important - take less skinks or drop a skink hero. Both are unacceptable. The only way is to bring stegadons to fill both battlelines and TQTH slots, but then I won't be in need of so much CP in a first place. The only thing I can think about is bringing penumbral engine and take 3x kroxigors instead of salamanders. PE is both good for bastiladons (reroll saves of 1) and for CP generation. It will be handy regargless of the result.
I forgot about that special attack which could take out a hero.. Good point! Most people around here play with 2 Crawlers. It just feels like immense damage when 2 Crawlers shoot 4 times each and they have 5 damage a pop. They can really remove a lot of Skinks, especially if you dont get to put up the save buffs. Would you do the same in case of Arkhan + Katakros where its 6 wounds/Mortek from 3 different targets each turn? Just focus the Guards from turn 1 and hope to destroy the units so he doesnt get to bring back models? I cant really figure out if aiming to take out Arkhan, Crawlers or Mortek should be first priority. Without Guards they will have an issue with capturing objectives, I just feel like it becomes a race of can I shoot his Guards off the table before he can remove my Skinks. Yeah it is true that the Slann for sure gets an edge in Starborne due to CCP/Summoning compared to Coalesced. The CP generation is still nice though. Maybe the Batallion isnt worth it? Run and shoot is nice for sure on the Bastiladons and somewhat makes up for the lack of teleport ability in Coalesced, but maybe you dont need the added range when they already shoot 24" and move 5". 29" is rather far. You are currently at 7 drops - If you switched things around and cut the Salamander you would be at 9ish drops. Not that big of a deal imo. On the other hand you dont have Astrolith or BwV either so Kroak wont do a ton of casting. A part of what I like about the Slann is the Celestial Equlibrium too.
I just make sure that skinks are 42" away from crawlers. Bastiladons and EotG are on the front, while skinks are the second wave. TBH, I don't remember any game, where crawlers dealt significant damage to me. The problem is that guard are the powerhouse themselves. If you ignore them, they will go to close combat themselves, tie bastiladons and bring them down after arkhan dealing some MW to hem. I prefere to engege first. Yes, they can bring back up to 6 models, but it is still manageble. In perfect scenario you will remove full 20 models unit per turn. If it is 30 or 40 models, concentrate on other targets first. OBR cannot have all the good stuff at once after the nerf. If OBR bring arkhan, I'd say he should be target No.1, because his spells may be devastating and he provides good support. He is very easy to kill, if you focus-fire everything at him. Even if you don't kill him, he will lose some bonuses to casting at least. Sure, but it is at the cost of some hitting potential. Without guard Slann can be easily brought down. 29" is far, but not infinite. I can hide from crawlers with 42" threat with ease. 7 drops is a lot, but I still have a chance to outdrop top-tier armies like CoS or Seraphon mirror Starborne MA's or even battalion-less OBR sometimes. It will give an edge against weaker armies too. Still, my main goal is mobility. The list is not about damage only. Running to the objective and still be able to wipe out enemy with shooting/shoot something important can win games. Also, look at it as 3d6 charge. Locking strong enemies and winning the war of attrition is very important too. Finally, Savage effect is great. With Drake Constellation and Savage, EotG gains +6 additional attacks. This can be devastating. Salamanders are still very good too. With predatory hunters+savage, they are dishing out 10 attacks. With run and charge they are getting in combat very fast. If the opponent underestimates them, they will bring a lot of chaos. If they focus on sallies - well, beasts and skinks are not hurt. with 12 wounds and 4+ save, sallies are still not that easy to take down. Bravery is the main issue, unfortunately. I think, kroxigors would be better addition, but I don't have any yet. Also, don't forget, that you can auto-run 6", if it is critical, for 1 CP. A handy tool too. I may try going without the battalion, but not on this tournament. He is not here for casting. CP and unbinds are main goals. We are weak to mortal wounds and denying 4 spells per turn with +1 is great. Comet is one of the best spells in the game and this single cast is worth brining kroak. He will also cast mystic shield on bastiladons and stellar tempest to thin hordes or shift to Apotheosis, if there are no hordes in the first place. There is burning head and a realm spell for him, as well as dispels. Even without spaming CD, kroak is a beast. I also tend to use him more aggresively in this list. He may easily get in range of CD by turn 3 and unleash death. If he dies, so be it. This list can properly function even without ton of CP. Yes, CPs are important, but losing Kroak is not an auto-lose.
Ok, so the tournament is over and here's a quick report: Game 1: Total Conquest in Ghur against FEC. Terrorgheis+ZD ghouk kings, archregent, ghoul patrol. I set up my bastiladons within 30" of his monsters, skinks are the screen. He takes the first turn, rushes forward and kills skinks, I retaliate with full laser volley and 3x deliverence from kroak. He concedes. It is a tough match-up for FEC, I guess, and depends on rolling 6 for a jaw attack a lot. I couldn't advise him much because I am not experienced against FEC too. 20-0 for me (major+auxiliary+kill more). Game 2: Battle for the Pass in Chamon against Kharadron. Frigate+2 Gunhaulers, some supporting infantry and heroes and... Gotrek. He is a good player but was inactive for a while. His army was not super-optimized either. He tried to alpha-strike me, but got really bad dice. The worst moment for him was activating phosphor bomb on bastiladon, but rolling 1 with the first roll. He also thought that ships can drop bombs only when they are being charged. He managed only to wipe out skinks again, and I retaliated back with all my strength. Gotrek got stuck on a point and managed to get to me only on turn 4, while I was holding 3 out of 4 points, including his terriotory. 19-1 for me, major, killed more, but didn't prevent one auxiliary for him (territorial is such a cheesy one). Game 3: Focal points in Shyish against Cities of Sigmar. Hallowheart, hurricanum, annointed, 2x mages, 60 phoenix guard, 2x celestar ballista. TBH, I wasn't in a mood for such a game at all. We started later than expected, my bus was in 2 hours and he was very skilled competitive player (part of ETC AoS team, IIRC), I didn't feel so well after 4 hours of sleep and even if I did feel well, I don't think, I had any chances. I made several mistakes during deployment, gave him first turn, he sniped priest, rolled good for attunement, healed all wounds back and on my turn I failed my spells, did stupid mistakes on movement, etc.etc. After turn 2 I conceded, because there were no way to remove his guard from central point for me. I really wish, we could have a rematch, because I think that this army is better MA for us than, say, 30 drakes. I think, I should've just concentrate all fire on phoenix guard and hope to intercept objective till turn 4. But, honestly, CoS are so unfun to play against. +d6 for casts is bonkers. Only Seraphon are worse. Anyway 2-18, major loss, but managed to complete auxiliaries. Game 4: Blades Edge in Chamon against big waagh. 4x support heroes and full ardfist of ardboyz. I am not familiar agains BW at all, but coalesced is straight up counter. Unfortunately, I made several stupid mistakes, allowing him to get to the points through hand of gork (or mork?). I should've been more aggresive too. Ardboys don't hit that hard as I thought. He managed to get to my points, because I didn't screen properly, but after turn 2 we were diced down. It was day 2 and we started later than intended. It was interesting moment, because he had more bodies, but I had more firepower. We decided to call it a draw. We had exactly same main scenario VPs count, both made a single auxiliary and killed the same number of units. It appears to me now, however, that we misinterprited, how killpoints actually work and I should've win the game. It is 10-10 officially, but 11-9 minor victory for me in fact. Game 5: Forcing the Hand in Chamon against tzeentch. LoC, Scribes, Gaunt, herald, 2x exalted flamers, 3x and 9x flamers, 10 horrors, 10 brimstones. He made a critical mistakes - put 6x flamers and an exalted flamers in range of bastiladons and gave me the first turn. I simply wiped them out. For the rest of the game I was pursuing him as he tried to retreat, but eventually I took over one of his objectives. As a result, major victory for me, killed more, made 2 auxiliary, denied 1. 19-1. These results took me to he 3rd place out of 17. Second place were seraphon too, also TQTH, but without skinks and with kroxigors. First place is my opponent from game 3 with his CoS. He went 5-0. Conclusions List is very good in my local meta. Not much CoS or Idoneth. Top tier is represented by Tzeentch and OBR. I feel, I could go 5-0, if not for my mistakes. Kroak is a core of the list, he is not going anywhere. Maybe, I will experiment with a slann a bit if I find something better. Priest general is very good. I may be sure, that skinks are always 4+ to-hit. It is a shame, that there's not way to take bodyguard for him. I only lost him once, however, and could prevent it. Starpriest is good for CP and poison. Not as necessary as other heroes. I don't think I am taking him without skinks. 40 skinks are great. Didn't regret taking them once. They are very annoying to move, but both shooting and melee are solid. I can easily give them up, if I need better screens, like against FEC or tzeentch. They are fearless blob, which is not easy to remove from objective, if they are fearless. Main downside is bravery, of course. I can prevent running away with command point, but every CP counts. As soon as I get Harmony on them, they are fine. TQTH is a main body. And I like it. Bastiladons are tricky to use, but great. Battalion makes them mobile and such mobility is decisive. I am not giving it up. Engine is good, but a bit random. I want to try Chief too. I give up any summoning and healing, but I didn't need any of this desperately. Chief can support bastiladons with hero sniping. I think, they are both viable and Coordinated attack on poisoned skinks can be nasty. Salamanders are somewhat of a weak spot. I have mixed feelings for them. On one hand, they run away, on the other hand, even two of them deal lots of damage. I think, kroxigors are better. I just have to find place for them. Sallies just tend to run away from any minor damage. Burning Head is ok. I often couldn't cast it and put in a good position without hurting myself, but when I did, it was helpful. I can easily give it up to fit something else, however. Well, now I am going to experiment with kroxigors in TTS and see how it goes. I am very glad that THTQ variations are so viable now.
Had another game against Lumineth with the list in question. Surprisingly, they gave up at the start of the third battleround. I was in doubt about salamanders initialy, but even after nerf they do so much. His list was Teclis, Cathallar, 2x 20 wardens, 2x 10 sentinels, 5x horses and some endless spells. I was lucky to deny both Speed of Hysh and Total Eclipse in the first hero phase of Lumineth and it made the game, IMO. I dealt enough damage to weaken archers turn 1 and easily wiped out other units, when Shining companies were broken. I hate playing Lumineth, TBH. They may be not the strongest army around, but they simply forbid you to do lots of stuff, which is frustrating. I thought that playing Coalesced against them is and auto-lose, but it ended up being far from it. I am afraid, my second game will be against Lumineth too and I won't be so lucky. I plan to take this list to a team tournament, so any feedback on good pairings against meta-lists would be appretiated.