8th Ed. 2nd army choice.

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

I'm trying to decide on my 2nd army after my lovely lizzies, narrowed it down to High Elves, Warriors of Chaos (Nurgle) or Ogres.

Will be running around 2400 points, lists below. Would like some opinions on competitiveness and funness.

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High Elf Army

Archmage, Level 4, Book of Hoeth

Mage, Level 2, Sigil of Asuryan
Noble, Barded Elven Steed, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour, Temakador’s Gauntlets, Potion of Strength

24 Lothern Seaguard, Shields, Command
23 Lothern Seaguard, Shields, Command

14 Sword Masters, Command + Potion of Foolhardiness
9 Silver Helms, Shields, Champ +SB
10 White Lions
Lion Chariot

2 Great Eagles
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

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Chaos Nurgle Army

Chaos Lord, Chaos Runesword, Chaos Runeshield, Mark of Nurgle, Palanquin of Nurgle, Bloodcurdling Roar

Chaos Sorcerer, Level 2, Mark of Nurgle, Infernal Puppet, Bronze Armour of Zhrakk, Chaos Steed, Stream of Corruption
Chaos Sorcerer, Level 2, Mark of Nurgle, Armour of Morrsleib, Conjoined Homunculus

19 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Nurgle, Shields, Command
20 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Nurgle, Shields/Halberds, Command

3 Ogres, Mark of Nurgle, Great Weapons
14 Chosen, Mark of Nurgle, Halberds, Command, Favour of the Gods

Chaos Warshrine, Mark of Nurgle
Chaos Warshrine, Mark of Nurgle

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Ogres Army (not got book yet but points should be close)

Slaughtermaster, Level 4, 50ish points magic items

Golgfagg Maneater
Firebelly, lvl 2, Great weapon

6 Ogre Bulls, Ironfists, Command
6 Ogre Bulls, Ironfists, Command
6 Ogre Bulls, Ironfists, Command

4 Leadbelchers
4 Leadbelchers
3 Mournfang, Heavy Armour, Ironfists, Command
3 Maneaters, 2 Great weapons, Heavy Armour

Stonehorn

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Loves and hisses, Tlaloc

 

[Lord Cedric]

I can't comment about the nurgle army, but since I own and play both the HE and Ogre's I can add to those.

Ogres are fun. They are very hard-hitting and who doesn't love a whole unit of stomping big-guys with 3 wounds each? With the new model releases and a new army book, these guys will be the new "go to" army in stores. As far as array of units and tactics... not much imo. They are mostly a "see the enemy and let's go get 'em" style. Great melee army. Just expect a smaller army overall as Bulls are 35 points and Ironguts being 48 points each unaltered just for core.

High Elves. They are mean. lol. With their ASF (speed of asyrian) and getting to reroll all missed hits in close combat as their initiative is really hard to beat.. they are formidable. Their overall characteristics for infantry is average but their swordmasters are fairly tough. Also, their units are a bit point pricey too. But they can rain arrows down on the enemy like no other.. aside say.. from Wood Elves. Good army assortment of units as their disposal and a decent "faster" moving army than most. Imo, their biggest asset could be their initiative and Magic as they have some tough magical items available and High Elf Mage's are pretty competitive.

 

[strewart]

I play High Elves, so I can comment on that list. HE are pretty good with the ASF, but its worth remember that they are soft and have barely any armour, so they are quite easy to kill. You need to use them well as an army to stand a chance, especially now with stepping up where you cannot just rely on killing the front rank and have nothing fighting back against you. You will suffer casualties.

High Elf Army

Archmage, Level 4, Book of Hoeth

Mage, Level 2, Sigil of Asuryan
Noble, Barded Elven Steed, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour, Temakador’s Gauntlets, Potion of Strength

24 Lothern Seaguard, Shields, Command
23 Lothern Seaguard, Shields, Command

14 Sword Masters, Command + Potion of Foolhardiness
9 Silver Helms, Shields, Champ +SB
10 White Lions
Lion Chariot

2 Great Eagles
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

Silver helms are crap. Don't bother taking them, they are a very poor choice compared to dragon princes. Dragon Princes have pretty much never let me down; they constantly plow through full units on their own even with the opponents steadfast. I run a unit of 8 with full command and the warbanner, very good unit. I'd switch the helms for princes and try to find points elsewhere to bump them up.

The level 2 mage is a huge amount of points and I honestly don't think he will add much to your army, you would be better spending the points elsewhere. With the book of Hoeth you want to throw lots of dice to get plenty of IF, not worth using dice with a lvl2.

Seaguard are great, good unit sizes. Lion chariots are awesome, might even be worth finding points for another since they act as very good support for the seaguard to make them win combat.

Swordmasters are a good choice, but your unit is very small. They are definitely a light, fragile support unit as is, and to be honest it is a lot of points for such a light fragile unit. I don't know, maybe you have a plan for them, but I would be tempted to pick your favourite special unit and combine the swordmasters and the white lions.

Eagles I haven't found to be that useful in 8th ed. Warmachine crew are harder to take down, and they are less likely to be able to march block since you can pass a Ld test and march anyway. Again, could be personal preference, but I'd switch those two eagles for a unit of shadow warriors, which have been very good for me.

It is also very useful to have a BSB in the army somewhere, though I'm not sure where you would find the points to add one. A noble on foot with armour of caledor, great weapon and BSB is very handy in a seaguard unit, those 3 extra s6 ASF attacks really help tip the combat!

 

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

Cheers for the replies

In regards to come of Strewart's points

Mage was for the +1 dispel mainly and the Sigil but I suppose if I have the lvl 4 I won't need it so much. Is it worth just taking a lvl 1 with high magic for shield and +1dispel or dropping him entirely?

Are Dragon Princes really worth the huge points cost? I thought as they wouldn't get 2 support attacks it would be a waste having more than 5?

Thanks for point about eagles, I like Shadow Warriors and if they're better than eagles for war machine hunting that would be good.

How many Sword Masters would you recommend for a hammer unit?

My main plan was to deploy one RBT and one Seaguard unit in each corner, just in shooting range of each other, then put my other units near the middle.
If the enemy go for the middle they move away and let the archers and RBTs whittle them down before engaging.
If the enemy go for one of the LSG+RBT corners, they shoot them and then when they hit the LSG my Knights and SM flank charge.
Whoever they go for, if they defeat them they have to slog across through a second wave of pointy arrows.

 

[cyanhawk]

If you want heavy cav, dragon princes are better in every way than silver helms. I used to play high elves back in 5th and 6th ed and have not played them in the new edition so I wont try and comment on how you would play using them now. What I will say is that one of my common opponents plays them consistently and my skrox unit loves to chew them up. I don't think I've ever lost a combat between his princes and my skrox.

I have seen him send 9 of them and a noble into the flank of a clan rat horde of about 60 or so models and pop the unit before though.

 

[strewart]

Mage was for the +1 dispel mainly and the Sigil but I suppose if I have the lvl 4 I won't need it so much. Is it worth just taking a lvl 1 with high magic for shield and +1dispel or dropping him entirely?

Are Dragon Princes really worth the huge points cost? I thought as they wouldn't get 2 support attacks it would be a waste having more than 5?

Thanks for point about eagles, I like Shadow Warriors and if they're better than eagles for war machine hunting that would be good.

How many Sword Masters would you recommend for a hammer unit?

Keep in mind the +1 to dispel for HE mages does NOT stack, so you don't get +2 for having two mages. The archmage already gives you that +1. Honestly, I prefer a magic light list though I do take an archmage (almost have to this ed), and if you want to go heavier with magic and use the low level one to try to cast dispel magic, go for it. But I know a mage for elves is a massive amount of points, and for the points saved... Well a noble with great weapon makes a massive difference to any unit's killing power. I think you would get more out of that then an extra mage. But like I said, if you prefer the style of a more defensive army keep the mage. Be prepared to suppport your units with lots of magic though.

Yes, dragon princes are absolutely in every way worth the points. Silver helms were ok when they were a core choice, but when they are directly competing with DP there is no challenge. Think about it, there is 7 points difference between them (after you give the helms a shield). For 7 points, the DP give you +1 WS, I, A and Ld plus the unit champ can take a magic item and the unit can take a magic banner! Throw in fire immunity (2+ ward) as an occasional benefit to the DP as well due to their dragon armour.

The two DP in the back are really more to absorb damage, who cares if they get a chance to attack. It means you suffer two casualties, you still get 13 s5 attacks on the charge compared to 15. If you only took 6 and suffered 2 casualties, you are reduced to 9 attacks on the charge. I certainly find it worth taking 8, but again every gaming group is different so you may want to experiment with 6.

Probably the best my DP have done in a game is charging a unit of 20 bestigors (with character) head on, killing enough of them to remove steadfast, breaking them and running them down. Pretty much every game they either destroy a unit or two (win me the game) or at least hold a big expensive unit in place for 3+ turns of combat. Love em'!

I honestly can't give you Swordmaster advice from firsthand experience. My favourite special unit is Phoenix Guard, I take 20 and they house my noble general with GW. The unit is tough as nails and hits fairly hard, they are also a very good unit. For swordmasters, I would suggest trying to maximize width so you get more blades in combat. Depending on how many points you want to spend, 6x3 or 7x3 will make a decent flanking hammer.


@cyanhawk, really? DP struggle against skrox units? I'd back mine in... Depending on how many skinks there were though. If it was a massive horde, wouldn't go near them with DP. If there was only 20-30, I'd kill half of them on the charge alone in my experience.

 

[cyanhawk]

Swordmasters are good but I find that white lions and phoenix guard are a better choice for the points. The PG particularly are the better option of the three. WL and PG can weather shooting better than the SM can. All three will mow down units once they get into combat. I agree with strewart, If you are going to take them then 6 or 7 wide and 3 ranks deep would be good. You just want to make sure you are getting the full 2 ranks of attacks once they get into combat.

@strewart 24 skinks and 3 krox. DP slaughter the skinks but pretty much every krox hit is a kill back. I usually win by 1 or 2 and then run them down. Maybe its just my buddies dumb luck against me? As I said Ive seen them absolutely murder many other units.

 

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

AH! My bad about the mage, I thought it needed to be using High Magic to get the +1 dispel. He can go then

I'll see if I can upgrade the current noble to BSB and then I can try dropping a few more points to upgrade the silver helms.

 

[strewart]

Swordmasters are good but I find that white lions and phoenix guard are a better choice for the points. The PG particularly are the better option of the three. WL and PG can weather shooting better than the SM can. All three will mow down units once they get into combat. I agree with strewart, If you are going to take them then 6 or 7 wide and 3 ranks deep would be good. You just want to make sure you are getting the full 2 ranks of attacks once they get into combat.

@strewart 24 skinks and 3 krox. DP slaughter the skinks but pretty much every krox hit is a kill back. I usually win by 1 or 2 and then run them down. Maybe its just my buddies dumb luck against me? As I said Ive seen them absolutely murder many other units.

Yeah I'd agree that WL and PG are the better choices.. But not by much. Against armies without much long range, SM will be awesome. I'd say it comes down to personal preference and which model you like best. PG are probably the most useful unit now in a largish block, but the reason I take them is because the old metal models are my absolute favourite elf models GW has made.

Those 3 krox would certainly do a decent amount of damage, the s6 is brutal to DP. Looking closer at the stats, yeah it would probably be a close fight, I just tend to have a high opinion of my DP. Hell in my last battle they charged a unit of chaos warriors including a chaos lord and survived 3 turns before fleeing!