I noticed from the results postings that there were three lizards in the top 10 and the SCGT the other weekend. I know for Raf (3rd) used a block of TG to do it. But does anyone have the lists all three were using? I'd love to see.
1) Yes, its unique. see here: http://www.heelanhammer.com/SCGT/SCGT2014RulePack.pdf I think lizards don't come off too well under it. I'm not quite sure what everyone took comp wise, but from Baddice's round up I think all three were in the 2-5 range. 2) They played out of the book warhammer with additional secret missions and deployment rules. 3) Not that you asked, but the SCGT is the biggest Warhammer tournament in the world. 185ish players this year.
Hey, that's awesome. Though the "soft" pool for Lizards didn't seem totally fair. Gor-Rok, SV Carno's, and the Engine are still pretty solid choices. The "power" pool seemed typical though. Definitely hit the main things in our army. Either way, glad to see some love for the Lizards! Out of curiosity, do you know how they handled some of the controversial rules in the new books? I don't want to turn this thread into another big rules debate, but it would be interesting to know if the LM army had the rules sway in their favor or not.
The SCGT comp for Lizards was brutal. Dan Heelan, the guy who runs the affair, plays Lizards himself so perhaps he was overcritical. But look at that soft comp. Cheapest Soft choice is a rare Razordon at 65 points. After that, you're looking at 150 for the solo Kroxigor - which is just free points without more investment; 300 minimum really. Your third soft choice is a Sotek Arc Bastiladon, also at 150; but even that needs another 70+ points of Swarms to make it even remotely useful. 290. Then you've got 200 point Trogolodons, 250+ point Ancient Stegs with Engines, or 300+ points for a Carnosaur. Not only that, its almost all coming from Rare (with a 25% limit), or the already over-subscribed Special. Not a single Core soft choice available. You'd gimp yourself beyond belief trying to work with that - its no wonder that there's a single Lizards list over 5. Meanwhile, Cold One Cavalry, Jungle Swarms, non-BSB Skink Chiefs on foot, and Ripperdactyls are all mysteriously absent. I tried making a no-Slann, no Skink cloud double Oldblood list, and still came out with a 3-4 :/ I really admire the idea behind the comp, and think its really moving in the right direction. But a couple of things really needed work (notably Lizards and Skaven), whilst others escaped scot-free (Empire).
The comp pack is interesting, but I'm much more interested in the lists. All the images I saw showed Saurus of differing varieties, and that's what I wanna know about. The build styles, as it was evident that the pure cloud was not in the top tables
=> You're right. I didn't. My questions had nothing to do with popularity and everything to do with wondering if the Lizards benefited from favorable rule changes, thus possibly giving those players an edge. PF and Burning Alignment, for example, can radically shift results/options depending on the ruling. => But without knowing the rules governing the game, the lists are missing a huge component in terms of evaluation. This should be obvious, but just to make a clear point - If a comp pack/rules change said all models on 40mm bases are 5 points each or that miscasts can never happen or that all armor saves are treated as ward saves or....that PF worked in ranks 2+... then the things in the lists would be very different. This is not a slam on comp. It's just a line of reasoning that says if you don't know what the rules were, knowing what was in the lists doesn't tell us very much.
=> Right. Fine. Didn't know that either, which makes their success even more interesting and we still would need to know the rules to properly evaluate the lists that did well.
I believe it was posted above. The rules I mean. However I don't think lists have been posted anywhere as of yet. Rasputin posted the URL to the rules pack, however it didn't show up In his post as a link so you might have to copy and paste.
There's no need to be rude and then condescending and self righteous. My post count may be small but you shouldn't auto assume I'm a chomp. I answered your question by providing the link to the comp pack, which if you read you could plainly see the lizard comp is harsher than for many other races. I then told you they played out of the book warhammer and then provided the size of the event. When you combine all these things it provides the necessary information to appreciate that its really quite intriguing that lizards did very well (not just one lizard army, but three). If you feel the FAQ rulings contribute a significant explanation to the successes of those three armies then go for it. I on the other hand (in the OP), was just asking what the lists were (because I feel I have a decent understanding of the setting and context).
Don't wanna speak for sleboda, but I doubt he was trying to be condescending. Obviously if he disagrees or feels like I'm off base he can say so Just to add something a bit more on topic, I believe raf are very typical skink cloud list with a 46 TG horde and a life slann. Daly ran a CO bus list (I believe, base do his tweet referencing a 6 cold one loss during a dwellers. Generally you don't lose six cold ones unless it's in a bus.). And jack Armstrong I believe ran a very typical skink cloud list. Again, that's just my best guesses as I don't believe the lists have been posted.
Predatory Fighter was allowed on supporting attacks. I believe that was the only Lizardmen FAQ. All of which can be found here http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=120367 That being said, I still strongly believe that the bonus is so miniscule that I don't think that a favourable change is as encouraging as Sleboda makes out. Who cares about one additional WS3 S4 attack per rank of Saurus? The evidence would seem to agree: Skink clouds. Skink clouds everywhere.
What I think is interesting, is that I believe those armies all had saurus (I might be wrong about all). Some with TG some with plain saurus, as far as I can tell from the instagram coverage, and that's what interests me!
Haven't seen the full lists but can't say for certain. However, taking Temple Guard is a completely different kettle of fish from taking basic Saurus Warriors. They come with plenty of benefits on their own, with the least being S5 and WS4, let alone Stubborn and ITP with a Slann. Plus, because they got cheaper you tend to see more of them - units of 36+ aren't uncommon. None of that's got anything to do with Predatory Fighter. Tak Raf's list. He's got 46 of the blighters, but from what I understand this is his regular list and damn the torpedoes comp. If someone wants to take Saurus Warriors, I think they're going to bring them regardless of what the ruling is on PF.
Sleboda comes off as rude or condescending way too frequently these days for me to still think that it's unintentional or that he wasn't tying to be. If you're constantly saying that you're not trying to come of as rude or condescending but consistently other people see that you are then doesn't that make you naturally rude and condescending? If that weren't the case then you would rarely come across that way. I'm glad to see lizardmen players doing well! I really like skinks both the models and how they play so I'd be interested in seeing more of the lists that used a skink cloud.
I agree largely with this. I think the addition of PF to supporting ranks played little to no factor in list design or in relative placing of the lizardmen armies. As I mentioned earlier the overall opinion still seemed to be that the lizardmen were comped pretty harshly in comparison to other armies.
I think something like this should be perhaps PM'd instead of posted publicly, but obviously I am not a moderator so everyone can use their own discretion. Just my opinion.
Keep it friendly here, guys. Personal attacks are never warranted. Is there anywhere we can go to see the lists that were used? I hear talk of Skink Clouds and TG bunkers, but it would be nice to see some more specifics.
Unfortunately it was a closed list tournament and the lists have not been posted :/ I've been waiting for Rafs new blog, hopefully he'll post his list in that. I know he had the tg bunker, mostly (best guess would be all, but don't know for sure) skink core, life slann, and tetto.