Designated generals of the Old Ones, After a few months of playing the 8th edition I made a decision to make my first Lizardmen tactic. After many times of playing with a good friend, a lot of talking about our tactics and stuff, this is the result! My motivation for writing about this tactic is because i've read many topics about the "Temple Guard Deathstar". I read some good thing about this unit, but i also read some things that made me think. I want to start with the following combination: Temple guard with the Skavenpelt Banner and a Slann with the Razor Standard. In my experience, the Temple Guard units are meant to charge the enemy, and serve as both a hammer and an anvil. A Temple guard unit in a horde formation with a Slann BSB is a great anvil because of the high amount of high-strength hits they give to the unit – and this way, it is also a (very strong) hammer! It is a very expensive unit though. It will quickly cost at least 830 points for a decent sized unit of temple guard with a Slann. In this calculation i took a naked Slann - please note that you want to tool-up your Slann. The amount of Temple guard is also quite big, but just a minimum for the aggressive style of playing. After playing a few times with this formation, I really want to tell you guys this isn’t a bad choice, but neither is it the best one. So let’s begin with the part where i start talking tactics. In the above combination, you’ll see this combination is very expensive. It does look great on paper, and might even be awesome on the gaming table, but i think it is not worth that many points! Let’s have a look at the numbers. A razor standard gives armour piercing, a nice little gimmick, but if you make your strength level just 1 higher, you will have the same effect, and even wound your enemies a bit quicker! I think this is not really worth the points, because Wyssans Wildform will give you the extra point of strength, and gives a nice little boost to your toughness too, so your temple buddies are even tougher to kill. It is easy to cast with a few dice, so ideal to put on your unit, anytime during your game. So this is what the start of the list will look like, Slann w/ BSB - Wandering Deliberations xx Temple Guard (at least 26) - Full Command Like you can see, i didn’t have to make a lot of choices. Everything you will need is a Slann BSB and a unit of Temple guard! Wandering Deliberations is in there for the signature loremaster, so you can have your Wyssans Wildform from the beginning of the game. The second thing we will add to the unit is the Skavenpelt banner! Yes, frenzy is quite good on this unit! You get (at least) 10 extra attacks from this piece of rat on a stick, and all that for a mere 65 points. Indeed, you will have to charge, and you want to charge, but not always into your closest enemy unit. Your little leadership checks will be made very easy because you have Mister Slann in your unit, so the chance you will fail is very small. Also, you will have to overrun every time you need to, but your temple guard can take it. So that will be a whooping 33, WS4, S6, predatory fighter hits coming right at you! Those attacks will deal a LOT of damage to every unit they hit. If they attack you back, you will be tough as a rock too, you will have T5 because of your spell! Not tough enough? Add some regeneration! Your Slann has all the signature spells, so he will also have your trusty Earthblood! T5 is already very hard to wound with most units, but if they also have regeneration it will be even harder. If you indeed have to pursue a unit after beating it, and come up into a strange position, do not worry! Your temple guards are tough as bricks, and as you probably know, leadership checks aren’t a problem because you are stubborn! Even if they flank you, sure, they can do some wounds, but your temple guard probably won’t budge an inch. To sum it all up, - Wyssan's wildform will boost the strength (-3 AS, often 2+ or 3+ to wound, T5) - Makes the unit harder to kill and makes the unit give more wounds. - Earth Blood (5+ regeneration) - Makes the unit much tougher in combination with the T5 So instead of giving your attacks a bit of more penetration you hit two birds with one stone, you will make quite a few more (even stronger!) attacks, and you are even harder to killed too! The only downside is that this combination comes at a whooping 700 points. But, we did save 130 points! That could be a extra unit of Ripperdactyls or 10 extra temple guard! If you take those, you can even lose some wounds before your unit will become “weaker” in combat! But this is the combination i like the most to use in this style of playing: To make the list complete I would like to suggest the whole combination: Slann Mage-Priest w/ BSB - Wandering Deliberations - Becalming Cogitation - Harmonic Convergence - Channeling Staff 36 Temple Guard - Full Command I often like to use a Banner of Eternal flame in this combination. I take this banner because i want to have a bit of more certainty against units with the regeneration special rule (say, trolls). This way, they really stand no chance against the temple guard. You will hit them easily, wound them like they are made of paper and they can’t hide behind their regeneration. Believe me, this really hits like a truck. To make them even more awesome, you can use even more spells from your signature spells! You could make your temple guard even harder to hit/wound by using Iceshard blizzard or Melkoth’s Mystifying Miasma. If your unit is still too slow after all these shenanigans, Why not put a bastilladon next to the unit! what about High Magic? You could swap the signature spells for some high magic goodness, but this might be a bit tricky in this situation. You can easily swap some spells for Wyssan’s wildform and Earth blood! If you don’t like this, you could also throw in some cheap Skink priests with the lore of beasts to take the wildform.
Apart from saving 45 points I don't see why you shouldn't put the Razorstandart in your TG and have Wyssans cast on the unit oO Besides, the TG cant take the Skavenpelt banner since it's too expensive. You need to put it on your BSB
It's about taking the two banners, there's no difference in putting it on a slann of in a templeguard unit! It is in the unit, thats what its all about! Sure you still can take one, but i think you have spend enough points on this unit! There are many other good choices in the whole armybook!
Lore of Life, Death, Metal and Shadow mages are going to have a field day with a unit like that. I agree that unit is hard as nails and hits like a truck. But it's very easy to redirect it or just throw something cheap in front of it. Then pple will just throw those "no saves allowed" spells and bam you lose half the unit with one spell. The ones that have no magic like that will do all they can not engage that block and kill the rest of the army. Blocks like that might work imo its too much points tied in a single block that can be taken out relatively easy.
Give your Slann an Obsidian load stone and have 4++ against most spells. Put a Bastilladon next to your TG and you have I 3, helping a lot with purple sun and pit of shades. Blast away those cheap redirectors with your WD Slann and your fine. Besides, Lizardmen have tons of options to win the chaff and redirect war.
Well what isn't killed when a purple sun passes or is hit by pit of shades? As sorrowquin mentioned above, you still have the ability to give some extra protection to the unit, like an obsidian lodestone! Thats personal preference. This tactica is only about my point of view of making, in my opinion, one of the best Temple Guard combinations in this book! And I did this by giving some advices how to use this unit at its best! And thats not with skavenpelt and razorstandard combination but with wandering deliberations! This suggestion about using temple guard is basic! And it is up to you to use this base to build an army and make it yours by adding things like magic items or combine them with other units..
Well, I use a TG with Skavenpelt and Razor and WD. It's true that you quickly get above 800 points for this unit but theres sth people don't seem to understand: Even if the unit should be avoided all game long your Slann is still worth it's points. It's not like he needs to get his unit into cc. Sure, it's a waste if not but your Slann is still taking part in the game throwing magic missiles left and right and buffing/hexing the rest of the field. You should obviously back him up with a priest or two for arcane vasseling but you do that anyways, don't you? So basically you can count out his points for the unit (apart from the Skavenpelt banner) since he count's on his own.
Agreed, the Slann will still worth its points! But the banner doesn't if the Slann's unit is avoided the whole game you're wasting those points on banners! This is a tactica which shows the oppurtunity to spare out points with the same result! As i mentioned in my first message:
While I agree with your point that adding all the banners aren't necessary and by cutting them you can save points for other stuff. You still havent shown how the major flaw with the temple guard deathstar can be solved. It's still the slow M4 infantry block that is frenzied. No competitive army runs a big slow infantry death star and hopes for anything more than a draw since the chosen star(3++ helps a lot). The only army that comes even close is the HE Botwd white lion unit but that is rarely the focus of the list and is( perhaps should is better here) backed up by mass *key word*LONG RANGE*key word* shooting which we simply cannot do. even that deathstar is faster, not frenzied, hits harder, faster and more accurately and has much better protection(2++). Perhaps you could explain why this works when every other variant on infantry deathstars fail?
I hope i understand you right, but i think there are two reasons! The first is that nobody is expecting a lizardmen player with a unit of temple guard without a frenzybanner who wants to charge! The second is because i tested this list before.. for example i battled against a unit of 40 savage orc big ubs, he had a bsb, general and savage orc great shaman in it, 5+ ward save and i took down this unit in two turns of combat! And yes indeed we only have movement 4 but mostly every enemy will move forward! So 2nd turn or 3rd turn charges will definately be possible! I hope i answered your question
i'd put the skavenpelt banner on the slann and a warbanner on the TG standard bearer. Charge, ranks, banners and you start with a combat resolution of 7. Then do your wounds. My VC opponent could start crying...
What about the Banner of Swiftness of Jaguar Pendant? Would either of these combine well with the Skavenpelt banner to help improve the movement speed problem?
Sorry maybe I didnt explain the problem very well. The problem with M4 deathstars is that most good players can fit them into 2 catagories, smashable or too risky. If its in the first case they can just run forward and smash it up with their better combat capability or shooting/magic, Temple guard have medicore protection at best, certainly not the super wards of chosen or Botwd units or high magic or the high armor of the empire, bret or warrior buses. It also doesnt really fight massively well against stuff like Nurgle demon princes, gutstars, white lions, skullcrushers or great unclean ones etc. Lets say for the moment that it can out fight everything so our opponent needs to redirect it. It's still only movement 4 without swiftstride so its only going to start charging( actually earning VPs) on turn 3( assuming our opponent is not silly and runs at a unit he cant beat) so we have 4 turns to earn points at best(3 if they baseline) To prevent this they will have to give us 4 units unless they can maneuver everything out of the charge arcs(possible and usually done by lizards but I'll ignore this for now). However if our unit is frenzied then we half the number of units the enemy needs to give us due to forced overruns. They can also avoid giving us a unit on turn 6 by congaing a stubborn unit with a champ at front or only giving the rear on a unit which will be steadfast. Most armies can field units for 50-70 points which can get in the way. so in a perfect world your 800pt deathstar will earn you 210 points in a good game. All the while the slann is also being dragged around to odd facings and his leadership and bsb bubble are being manipulated away from the rest of your army. If it was fast like a cav deathstar then the amount of chaff needed to redirect the bus can provide sufficent points to make up for the rest of the army, also it is more likely that the opponent cannot get the chaff into position to redirect and must give up proper points. To do this with temple guard (+1M banner and Jag standard) cuts too much into their fighting abilities I can see how the list works versus people who dont know how to redirect or cant guess how a particular unit matchup turns out. Against good players it just seems a slow, expensive, vunerable, not very good deathstar, if you have any reasoning as to where I'm wrong please let me know. I doubt it unless he values the 32pt fell bats or 40pt wolves you will be fighting.
Well good option! Swap to the High Magic tactic and will get your unit very quick in position! Well your facing one unit against a whole army! And yes things like great unclean ones etc. will be difficult to kill! But i'm sure this unit isn't getting blocked by those small units! Don't forget there is a whole army of skinks, saurus, flyers around this unit! When the enemy blocks hit path to my units! He also blocks his own units! Further I agree movement 4 isn't the best movement you get, but this unit has to kill one big target! And it is up to you where you deploy the unit! The deployment will be very important! And maybe I haven't been clear with the first topic! I mentioned deathstar in comparison with the other topics i have read. This isn't meant as a deathstar, but as a good set-up for an aggressive lizard list! Deathstar lists have one massive center unit which should make the difference! I agree if you say only this temple guard unit won't.. I'm happy when this unit kills one big unit of Spearmen, Orcs, Chaos Warriors etc. So to sum it all up for you: I agree this isn't the best deathstar, but i think this is a very good option to use to build the rest of your army! So the comparison with White Lions and Skullcrushers aren't well-placed.. This unit is very well to move forward, make at least one charge to make a difference at the end of the game, and combine with the other good units of this armybook! Yes you start with a combat resolution of 7, thats what i meant to say with: "On paper it looks awesome, but practically?" You have to charge for 7 so yeas it is possible, but the enemy is also able to make charges! Please don't forget you want to charge big units - small units should be wasted - and those units will have also 3 ranks, a banner, sometimes a battlestandard bearer.. so you only have the profit of a warbanner and charge.. If the enemy charge you both have the same starting combat resolution.. Don't forget both units could make hits! Normally you won't lose many wounds but you can lose ranks! To start combat with a high combat resolution don't make you win the battle!
If you want super aggressive, try Monster Mash. You can squeeze NINE monsters into a 2500 point list. Something like: Scar Vet on Carnasaur Unit of 60 skinks, 6 krox, + command (or any 25% core combination) 3 Bastiladons 3 Steggadons 2 Steggadon Ancients I don't know about you, but a lot of my armies would have a real hard time against that. Plan is simple: Run forward and smash face. -Matt
Aggressive is no monster mash! If i would play monster heavy, i would say: Great list! The biggest surprise should be the temple guard unit with slann moving forward! Normally people don't want a Slann in Close Combat! You can use many monster with it, but i shouldn't do that, make a combination of rippers, maybe a stegadon and saurus warriors - I personally like saurus better then skinks, why? Just because i like the way to play!
I dont.. eh.. if people don't want to get into dirty, nasty combat with their slann bunker there are other alternatives (skink bunker or etheral). It's too expensive IMO to spend a minimum of what? 16 x 14 pts (224pts) just to autopass on Look Out Sir. Any retard can still walk up and challenge the slann in a TG unit.. Unless you spend even more points on the unit. But again, this is just my opinion. If you bring the slann's personal boitoys you better make them able to fight or go for something cheaper. I'm sorry for going slightly off-topic here, I just couldn't stop it when I saw your "normally people don't want a slann in combat".
Don't forget the slann, only 16 templeguard aren't stubborn, but i'm convinced you already knew that! I know people don't want, because they are to afraid to take a "risk"! When you only want your templehuardfor being stubborn and doing nothing the whole game long, 16 templeguard would be enough! But isn't it worthless to spend 224 points (usually with command group so 254) to a unit for only being stubborn? You'd better could invest some points to take a bigger unit which can fight, then spend points for a unit for doing nothing!! And your slann would be safe at all in a big unit because they usually won't flee and won't got slain in a battle! But you said it was personal preference, so i only want to convince of "supremacy" of the temple guard, but you have to play it your style! And don't be affraid to take some risks and losing a game with a list which is meant for testing! Sometimes you learn good new things and sometimes you learn you don't have to take that combination anymore