Hey guys, been a while since I posted here but with the launch of the new book I thought I would do a wee post on my list thoughts! I have started a new multi purpose army that functions as orcs and lizards (Da LizOrcz) you can check out some of my painting and modelling projects here: http://paint-hammer.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Orcs%20and%20Goblins Wee bit of a different post this time with a bit of analysis and thoughts on my Lizard (Liz-Orc) army list for the coming months/year. I'll admit I was inspired to do this post following @Raffaza 's recent excellent posts (over there somewhere --->) of this type so I thought I would try my best to emulate them with my own twist! The objective with this project is to have an army which I can fit under any comp system, have plenty of fortitude, not have bad match ups, compete in every phase, not be too filthy (read skink cloud) and most importantly be fun to play. I have played a few games with this list (or very close to it) and really enjoyed how it played and found that if I play well it is very hard for me to lose big but also really challenging to win big with the list (inspired by Chris Tomlin @the_black_sun). Overall it is very hard to get a big win off the list without killing the slann. I think my mistake (and problem) with the Ogres was the fact that I could not write a list I was happy with which was flexible and fitted under every comp system. I dotted around too much and barring the obligatory gutstar and slaughtermaster I changed my list for nearly every game and tournament. This led to me burning out alot and getting bored of the list and not learning and perfecting the play style, don't get me wrong I had a lot of fun playing it but I rarely won due to tactical acumen, more often than not the toys just worked and the gutstar crushed everything under foot. So the list below is a 2500pt Lizardman list that can be easily modified to drop to 2400 (remove steg and add terradons/ripperdactyles (I LOVE THOSE PESKY LITTLE RIPPERS!!) and a few temple guard) and will score a 9 on swedish comp when it does. Now I know that is a low score for Lizardmen under that system but my thinking is that if I learn this army inside out and really get good at using it then that should out weigh the score difference at my level of play (see this excellent article on the matter on @Raffazza 's blog here (Raffazza Blog Post) written by @JSCorteen, second plug!!!). I will not profess to be aiming for top tables and tournament wins (I don't have the skill to do that) but I would like to solidly compete in any game without being gamey and have great fun games with my opponents where if I win, I win because I played well. My aim will be to play with the below list and tweak slightly (eg magic items and upgrades only) for the next few months to really hone it to what I believe to be the best list for me. A lot of people said that the loss of leadership 6 skinks meant you just "had to play better", well that is my intention, to learn how to play better! Anyway below is a break down of the units and why I have taken them, let me know what you think. I would really appreciate feedback taking into account what I have said above. I have listed in green what the "Counts As" Liz Orc model is for clarity and when I attend any tournament I would check that it is OK with the Tournament Organiser and would hand out a "Help Sheet" to my opponent before every game so that it is clear what I am using. Lords Slann Mage-Priest: (Savage Orc Great Shaman on Palanquin)Disciplines: Harmonic Convergence; Soul of Stone; Wandering Deliberations; Magic Items: Channeling Rod; Obsidian Talisman (MR2) Standard Of Discipline; Potion of Speed Misc: Battle Standard. Loremaster (Wandering Deliberations) (+100 vps General, +100vps for BSB) So the big boy himself the Slann, in my opinion he is an absolute must at 2000pts + to get that leadership 10 and +4 cast/dispel. With the drop in leadership of the Skinks having a cold blooded 10 BSB anchoring the centre is just utter gold especially when you double flee your skinks through units. Disciplines are a bit controversial here as well as extremely conventional. Harmonic Convergence is an absolute must IMO to get those three 5+ channels (channeling staff) which coupled with the skink priests below mean that I quite often have +2 PD/DD each phase, more often than not I have more dice than my opponent by 4/1 in every phase. Soul of stone is a bit less certain at the moment, the +/- to miscast results can be great but in a temple guard bunker you sometimes don't really see a benefit. Wandering Deliberations is probably my favorite choice for this army, knowing all the signature spells in the BRB is sexual. With so many low casting values and damage spells it gives me massive flexibility and ranged threat I can have a solution to any problem. I tested loremaster high magic and found myself reluctant to swap out many spells and the only one I did (tempest) meant that I had to wait 1-2 turns before getting the spell I really need. To compound this, as I didn't want to swap out some spells it really just meant I was missing out on a lore attribute. Where wandering deliberations really comes into its own is when used in conjunction with my skink priests who can act as vassals for my spells adding 24" and multiple arcs of visibility to my plethora of magic missiles and direct damage spells. In particular it often means I don't need to boost my casting values to increase the range of spells (Spirit Leech) as the skinks can get up close without risking the slann. Which other army can have a 48" threat range Spirit Leech or Searing Doom?!? The other sneaky applications can be keeping a skink behind your lines or off to the side to insure that your slann can blast flanking/ambushing forces without compromising his facing. Shhh don't tell anyone either but as the Slann is an infantry model he can also swap positions with the skink priests using an otherwise pointless Miasma to get out of a sticky situation. Imagine your opponents horror when their daemon prince charges the templeguard looking to crack the soft gooey caramel slann centre only to find that he now has to wade through 18-20 steadfast cold blooded leadership 10 re roll-able dinosaurs turn 5-6 only to have his caramel goodness denied to him?!? The other buffs like wildform, earthblood and iceshard blizzard and he can really make units rock solid and hold up for a longtime. Using the lore of life attribute I can also pop wounds back on stegs, scar vets and even the slann to keep them safe for another few turns. I have put MR 2 on him to give him a 2+ vs death snipes, magic and the unit a 5+ vs magic. Additionally I can pop the skink priest and scar vets into the temple guard turn one to keep them safe(r) vs death magic at the beginning of the game. Finally I used up a stray 5pts on the potion of speed. If for what ever reason I need to jump the slann out of the temple guard late game I can imbibe the potion to get him int 5 and thus protect him against late game pit of shades/purple suns. Heroes Saurus Scar-Veteran: (Gorbad Ironclaw) Magic Items: Dawnstone; Dragonhelm; Potion of Fool Hardiness Misc: Cold One; great weapon; light armour. Scar Vet number one is the standard 1+ re rollable strength 7 beast with a 2++ vs flaming. My only tweak is to chuck on the potion of fool hardiness to give him +1 attack on a charge which makes him hit just like an Oldblood. Compared to the old TM build he has lost his magical poisoned great weapon which was an incredible bargain and was a great counter to a Kdaii. He has however gained Predatory fighter which is great when you get that one combat where you roll a couple of 6s on your attacks. The always pursuing draw back hasn't been an issue yet and any time it could be I would plan accordingly and get one of my priests in range to mitigate it. The extra attack on the coldone is also nice and can help chip an extra wound off for combat rez. I really love this guy, he can hold up and take on monstrous cav and monsters but just struggles a bit with tooled up combat characters. Stupidity isn't usually an issue when in range of the slann but it is something to bear in mind. In certain situations I can also bunker him and his pal up in the temple guard to benefit from lifeblood, wildform, magic rez and stubborn, charging them out if an opportunity arises. The 2++ vs flaming is a must as well most armies can only deal with characters like this using searing doom so it's good to have hard counters like this guy. Barring the templeguard and steg, the army is a hard counter for metal magic toting armies so it is good to have this ability. Saurus Scar-Veteran: (Warboss on Boar) Magic Items: Armour Of Fortune; Dragonbane Gem; Misc: Cold One; great weapon. My second Rambo vet follows many of the principles above but his magic item kit is more flexible/likely to change. Currently this is my favourite secondary build but I will also try light armour, charmed shield, dragonbane gem and ogre blade to get a magical sword in the army to deal with ethereals and K'daii and gives him a little bit more survivability vs cannons. I will play test both however and feed back/tailor as required. Skink Priest: (Night Goblin Shaman) Magic Items: Cube of Darkness; Lore of Heavens. The first of my two skink priests, these sneaky buggers can act as hubs for slann castings as detailed above and as such are one of the most flexible and valuable additions to the army. I have opted for Lore of heavens over beasts on these guys for a number of reasons. Primarily it is because ice shard blizzard is a much easier casting for a lvl 1 over wildform (3-4 dice required with a lvl1...) and when combined with a second/3rd stack of the buff I can put out -1 to -3 to hit and leadership to a specific unit. Unlikely I will get this off but on that one occasion I do it can win me the game! The second reason I prefer heavens on them is that the lore has 2 big headline spells which are MUST stop spells for most opponents if I am lucky enough to roll them. Comet vs a gunline or to act as board denial is completely gold. In most cases you would be 6 dicing comet any way so on a lvl 1 it doesn't really matter compared to a lvl 4 and chain lightning in a mirror match or vs a MSU army is brutal. Thirdly the secondary spells, harmonic convergence and curse of the midnight wind, really combine well with the army getting bubble buffs/debuffs off can swing shooting and combat phases massively. Finally the extra magic missiles and ranged debuffs all synergise with my army giving me almost supreme stand off and mid ranged threat. Skink Priest: (Goblin Shaman) Magic Items: Dispel Scroll; Lore of Heavens. As with the above skink, this is my second "scroll caddy". The combination of a scroll and a cube of darkness means that I can write off two enemy magic phases which coupled with all my channels gives my army second to none (well except dorfs....) magical defence. Once the dwarf book and bret book are re done I suspect that Lizards will be left as the only double scroll army in the game. This is an advantage I cannot pass up! The cube of darkness is another interesting addition, with the added ability to nullify remains in play spells, this can really catch people out. Even more so if you let a remains in play spell off early phase then use the cube against another spell this can kill off two spells in a phase in one go. I tend to pop the scroll first to let my opponent think that they are safe for future castings and then blast this out later. After the scroll/cube have been dispensed of I can also use the priests as re directors end game in sticky situations. Core 24 Skink Cohort Warriors: Musician; Standard Bearer. (Night Goblins with Spears and Shields) • 3 Kroxigor (River Trolls) Total: (+25vps for banner) Ok internet controversy time... I have Skink Kroxigor units... The much maligned Skrox unit took a bit of a battering in the new book with the kroxigor now being able to be targeted even when not in base to base and the skink can now be stomped as well but I think there is still value in the unit. Getting strength 7 (kroxigor are now S5) into core is pretty much an exclusive and the extra leadership of 7 means that the unit can operate independently if required. The unit also can output some extra poisoned shooting which when buffed with wildform bumps up to strength 4 poison. Being that the javs are quick to fire I can double tap with my shooting phase and the subsequent charge. You can also swift reform wide, move 6 and pump out some extra shots late game if required. Also for blood an glory the unit adds an extra fortitude point which is pretty difficult to shift and is quite fast with movement 6. The biggest reason I have skrox in my army however is static combat rez. Increasingly the game is shifting towards MSU/MMU and monster mash armies and as such a unit with 5 rank bonus and banner can really cause head aches to lone monsters/characters with a flank or rear charge. In my last game I flank charged a dreadlord with this unit and ran him down, don't under estimate static combat rez! Also If you can set up a flank charge with a scar vet and this unit you can break their steadfast and run them down in one fell swoop The unit now also has a slightly higher armour save thanks to the skink gaining scaly skin 6+ (totaling a 5+ armour /6++ parry). Its not much but in a shooting war it can make all the difference. Finally I'm not sure people have fully thought through the targeting allocation against the kroxigor, only the most dedicated combat units will managed to do 9 wounds to a toughness 4, 4+ armour save, fear causing giant crocodile so your still getting some attacks back at strength 7. And even if they do there are still 24 skink with 3 rank bonus sat there anchoring the enemy unit in place for future flank charges. Factor in one or two combat buffs and things can really stack in your favour. In most cases I would not recommend banking on magic buffs but with the Slann it is a bit more reliable. 24 Skink Cohort Warriors: Musician; Standard Bearer. (Night Goblins with Spears and Shields) • 3 Kroxigor (River Trolls) Total: (+25vps for banner) Same as above! 10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield. 70pts (Night Goblins with Spears and Shields) 10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield. (Night Goblins with Spears and Shields) 10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield. (Night Goblins with Spears and Shields) 10 Skink Skirmishers: javelin; shield. (Night Goblins with Spears and Shields) Still are and always will be an auto include! Arguably the best unit in the game and used properly they are better than ever before. Being a free upgrade now for the javs it is a no brainer in my opinion which coupled with the new scaly skin these guys are surprisingly resilient to light arms fire (skirmish and a 5+ armour). The drop in leadership is a bit annoying but it's still average with cold blooded and kept within range of your slann (at minimum on the re groups rolls) you have no fear! Javelins are great too, hitting on 5s on the move at long range/standing and shooting (4s at short range) the care really put out the hurt when required. Being quick to fire you don't suffer a penalty for moving and can always stand and shoot, so you might still get a little value out of them when preforming extreme point blank re-directs. Finally if they are in range of your slann's leadership and BSB you can rely on them to hold up some units for a turn or two with their parry. If I was trying to really squeeze the swedish points out of the army and get some extra banners/fortitude for blood and glory scenarios I can change these to normal skink cohort units of 10 with a muso and banner. This little change gives me 7 more swedish point (0.7 score) to play with. The units do become slower and less maneuverable but they get a +1 to rally and are steadfast (not skirmishers) with 1 rank bonus and banner. Also the unit then occupies less board space which can become an issue and helps with re-groups. Special 18 Temple Guard: Musician; Standard Bearer; (Black Orcs) + (25pts for banner) Temple guard really got a boost with the new book being 2pts cheaper and gaining predatory fighters. The real and biggest boost however is that Slann automatically pass look-out sir! rolls while in the unit. This is massive as it puts people off even bothering to target your slann with purple suns and cannons. My only issue with this unit is the unit size, ideally I would like to have had a bigger unit (24-30) to make the unit that bit more resistant and threatening but the scar vets etc can make up for it and in a lot of games the unit becomes a glorified super bunker for the slann. Also with Earthblood, wildform, miasma, ice shard blizzard and magic res 2 the unit can take quite a pounding. In extreme circumstances I can bail the slann out of the unit with miasma shadow swapping. A sneak trick to mitigate your miscast losses (a bit of a problem when your in base to base 12 models!) is to put your slann at the edge of the second rank so that when/if you blow up you only hit 8 temple guard at max. Be careful with this however less you get your slann in base to base with a scary combat unit/character! I am weighing up getting the flaming banner and a champion with a magic weapon into this unit at the moment but would have to drop some serious points else where to do so! Rare: 2 Salamander Hunting Pack (Black Orcs with Flame Throwers). Additional Handler Initially these guys were written off as a bit of nerfed unit but I'm actually welcoming their changes. Marching and firing was a little OTT before so that was to be expected but the increase to strength 4 was a great boost imo. With the new dark elves possibly heralding the return of infantry these guys will become more and more valuable! A lot of internetz people also bemoaned the apparent loss of auto panics but a quick read of the main rule book shows that fire throwers do this anyway so don't let anyone tell you otherwise! Due to the loss of speed the unit now acts more as board denial and will draw disproportionate fire to neutralise them so the additional handler is always worth the points. A great unit and if you can combo a cheeky ice shard or two you can panic off a unit late game Ancient Stegadon, Sharpened Horns (Stegadon with Black Orc riders) The last and big fun stompy part of my list is a single ancient stegadon. These guys got a lot of boosts in the new book: no longer cannon pinball machines with their new single profile, intitative 4 for the purposes of pit of shades/purple sun and a masssssssive reduction in points. The upgrade for sharpened horns (D3 wounds on impact hits) really threatens monstrous cav/infantry, daemon princes and characters and makes it a priority for your opponent to deal with. The model can also output a large amount of shooting with its 4D6 poison darts and 3 javelins. The clever part is that the giant blow pipes are 18" range so the steg can hide behind a skirmish screen and still fire. The steg is also immune to psych so you can double flee through the steg with no fear (popping them an extra 6" away from reprisal) and then charge with your steg in the following turn! Cheekily the steg can also stand and shoot which is always nice! Having a terror causer can also be very useful when combo'd with ice shard blizzard! Oh don't tell anyone but wildformed Ancient Stegs charging daemon princes is dinosaur shaped filth! Finally if I drop the steg for 2400pts the army becomes ridiculously cannon resistant with the only decent target being the scar vets whom you can usually easily hide behind intervening terrain! Total: 2,500 points Fortitude: 6 Number of Shots: 68 + 4D6 162 Wounds Swedish Comp Score: 8.6 Anyway that wraps up my meandering army list explanation/justification, ill post up periodic battle reports with the army and let you guys know how I get on! For that matter follow me on twitter tonight as I play @_wee_men 's WoC using this army list! Pics and maybe even a battle report to follow! Please don't post individual points costs for units. Thanks you.