Played my carno for the first time tonight and I have a rules query. After inflicting the first unsaved wound the carno is subject to frenzy and subsequently this causes the rider to be frenzied. In such an instance when does the frenzy come into play? The carno charges, carno attacks before rider, scores a wound, frenzy is triggered. Does that mean that the rider is subject to frenzy when he carries out his attacks next. Or will the frenzy come into play in the next round of combat? I feel the latter should apply but think I'll see what the communityt hinks before throwing a possible one more s6 attack away, especially considering the level of cheese infesting my daemon player opponents list (which I beat tonight BTW...first game he'd played with them, and they lost, impact hits and BA will tear down a Keeper no problem ) Or, would it possibly be the case that the OB's higher I will mean that he will attack before the carno subsequently rendering the frenzy question answered in itself? Cheers -Eagle
The link shows this arguement. I think pretty much what it came down to is that your gonna have to discuss it with your opponent. Many believe that the rules say it's instantanious and that the Carno even gets an additional attack. While that particular arguement probably wouldn't fly it is conceivable you could get your character's extra attack in there.
the main problem is that there is no refference to the order of attacks in a normal charge situation. everybody strikes 1st, but the order is not indicated anywhere. this is a prefect example for why this is a problem, but there are many more like it. common sense would say that even during a charge models strike in initiative order but even common sense varies among people.
From my read of the situation, it seems like while you get the frenzy rule immediately, you don't benefit from the extra attack on profile for the attack that generated the unsaved wound. The problem then seems to be, if on the charge, does the rider benefit from it in the same manner if the carnosaur inflicts an unsaved wound and gains frenzy. To this i would have to say no. All your attacks are being rolled simultaneously, weather they be from the rider or mount, your attack profile remains unchanged until after the attack is completed. This seems the most fair and balanced application of this, you are of course welcome to disagree. The other instance of this occuring is of course if you get charged yourself. In this case, If the carnosaur goes higher in the initiative order(carnosaur/Grymloq I is:2, Krok-gar: 4, Oldblood:4) then you would gain the bonus frenzy attack if the rider does go after the mount, which can occur through use of a great weapon, or some other similar initiative nerf, but not the mount itself for this turn. Frenzy(pertinent section of the rules): Models with frenzy attack with +1 extra Attack during close combat Close combat sequence: 1etermine initiative order(in the book as who strikes first pg 34) 2: Roll to hit(hitting the enemy also pg34) 3: Roll to wound(Wounding the Enemy pg 35) 4: Taking saving Throws(pg 36) 5: Remove Casualties(pg36) The frenzy conferance is granted between steps 4 and 5, as you can gain frenzy but not actually kill a model. note 2 things, one, that in the attack order, the model granting frenzy has already proceeded through the first 4 steps, and cant go through them again until the next combat phase, and two, that nowhere in frenzy, carnosaur, nor the CC rules does it say that if you were to somehow gain frenzy, you benefit from it for that attack(since the rules are exclusionary, we assume we cant do something, unless it specifically tells us that we can, or have to, do/benefit from it) Again, you may disagree with me if you want, the point is, that none of us can say difinitively that it works this way or that, and GW isn't exactly likely to make a ruling Thats how i see it anyways... (i actually didnt see there was a 2nd page to that linked thread where some of this was discussed, my bad)
the only problem is that "all dice are roleld at once" comes under "fast dice rolling" while techincally each model /part of the model should roll its attacks individually (and this has appeared in teh BRB FAQ). given these facts there is actually an order for attacking but that order is nowhere present. while i'm of the opinion that it all should happen in initative order there is no mention of this in the BRB. in our case i would disagree for either character or mount to benefit from frenzy due to the initiative order but if the oldblood had a carnosaur pendant and he casued a wound before the carnosaurs initative then teh carnosaur would get his extra attack due to the fact that frenzy is applyed imeditely, and thus is an out of sequence event, before the carnosaur gets to attack.