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8th Ed. CHAOS DWARFS ~ Army List Construction and Feedback

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Sep 26, 2021.

  1. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

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  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Something similar to the list I posted to start this thread, but with a few cutbacks. Truth is that I always play a 3K points, so I've never really built a 2k list.
     
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  3. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Ha!

    I never play under 2K if I have a choice as I don't get to work out my army synergy and tactics sufficiently for my liking.
     
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  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    My thoughts exactly... I can't create a list that fills all my needs at low points games. Not enough toys to play with!
     
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  5. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Bingo.

    Right next to list building, laying out the complete army at the start of the game is my next favourite moment. It has to be big, needs to have some CHUNKY monster types and some large infantry blocks for it to be a real army. Preferably with some mean looking artillery pieces. Mmmmmmm....

    (Before it gets completely torn to pieces that is... :( )
     
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  6. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

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    lower points games force you to make tough decisions about what kind of list you want to make though. Almost makes it more interesting, takes a bit of brain power, means making sacrifices etc
     
  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I find those sacrifices unsatisfying. :p

    That said, 2000 and 2400 point lists are far more prevalent than my preferred 3k. To each their own.
     
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  8. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    I'm constantly chasing the first moment when I picked up a White Dwarf magazine and saw these huge battle dioramas laid out. All I wanted in the world was to have a massive battle like that.

    So, it's not often, but if I get a chance to do a 3K battle I do it. Usually takes most of the day though which can be a bit rough :)
     
  9. Karnus
    Razordon

    Karnus Well-Known Member

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    thats the crux isn’t it, On a good day we can do 3x 2.5k games in a day but it’s a long old day haha
     
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  10. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Doing TWO 2500 point battles in a day is rough. You'll have to be pretty snappy about decisions, etc. and lunch/dinner is kind of inhaled...

    I like to be able to enjoy the battle and have some friendly banter going throughout (good-natured trash-talking and... I have been known to start giving the battle a storyline and running narration... :oops:)
     
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  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    4cik6g.png
     
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  12. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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  13. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Overall, I think it’s a great build.

    in terms of strengths, you’ve got a solid infantry unit, good artillery, nice monster-hammers and a tough wizard that can run around casting spells.

    Weaknesses are the obvious anti-flaming attacks for the destroyers, which if you can pin these guys down then all of a sudden that’s a LOT of points neutralised and aside from the Bull Centaurs nothing fast left which leads to potential outmanoeuvring. Movement for majority of the force is a weakness. The anvil with M3 could be avoided. The anti-chaff hobgoblins can be destroyed fairly easily with simple bowfire.

    Depending on the army that I would field, I’d have two mobile characters with dragon helm and dragon bane gem. Probably an Arabyan carpet of my own and a cavalry with the other. I’d try to neuter the destroyers if I could.

    I don’t think I’d change anything. I’ve yet to see how the bulk centaurs perform but I’d definitely want to have another fast unit to prevent war machine hunters or cavalry getting into awkward positions behind my lines.

    My tactic above for the destroyers could be countered by careful deployment, so as the opponent I’d try to make a list that had a lot of firepower and wait for the destroyers to come to me, moving my counters to match.

    That’s my thoughts so far!
     
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  14. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Great stuff, all good points! Thank you for the feedback. !.png

    That really is the key. They represent two thirds of the mobile close combat threats in my army. In a pinch I can separate the Taur'ruk from the Bull Centaur Renders unit, but even still, losing (nullifying) both Destroyers would be devastating.

    This is true, but the army list does have one more trick up its sleeve... the 3 warmachines. The hope is that they would force the enemy into the range of my slower moving anvil unit. It will depend on who I am facing, against Dwarfs its not really going to work, but against most armies the 3 warmachines should cause them quite a headache and prevent them from winning the battle from a distance. The bows from the Hobgoblins should help a little, if only to remove some chaff.

    Not much we can do about it, our core is comprised entirely of M3 and M4 troops.

    The Renders are okay but not great. The Taur'ruk should prove to be pretty good... similar to our Scar-vet Cowboy. More expensive obviously, but with twice the number of wounds.

    I went with the Bull Centaurs for a couple of reasons:
    • Fireborn are likely the stronger unit of the two (in most cases), but they would only potentially compound the dragonbane gem and/or dragonhelm counter against my Destroyers. The Centaurs can be used to eliminate these threats, while the Fireborn cannot.
    • A flying Taurus mount also has flaming attacks, so we have the same issue as discussed above
    • The Iron Daemon is more difficult to maneuver and can be bogged down as well, so it doesn't assist the Destroyers as effectively as the Bull Centaurs can
    • everything else in the army is too slow to keep pace with the Destroyers.

    A sound strategy. There are definitely a couple of armies that can outshoot my 3 warmachine + two archer unit build. At the same time, many other armies will struggle to do so.

    I could always switch the Sorcerer-Prophet's lore to the lore of Death for more ranged firepower, but I kind of like the Lore of Hashut for fluff reasons (plus I find the lore of Death boring to play, even if it is highly effective)



    [​IMG]
    (okay, I'll stop with the LOTR references :p)
     
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  15. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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  16. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Well-Known Member

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    please don't ;)

    My contribution is not that big, I'll have to say.
    Chaos Dwarfs is not at all in my scope. The only thing I can bring to the table is this:
    A Chaos Dwarf list merely consists of plastic, glue and paint and occasionally some resin and metal :p

    I like the esthetics of the models, not a fan of the big hats though. To comical for my taste.
    The more grim dark models look good and I once have thought to own some of them.

    00636af11a0190e2bf1859756716ef9c.jpg


    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  17. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    As always, I like the conversation. It fills a void I find myself in mostly on people to talk to about Warhammer. :)

    Now that I am familiar with the army list, it would be my primary counter objective. The rest I could probably manage (the Bull Centaur Taur'ruk is gonna be a b***h to deal with as well to be honest, but I'd pick a decent infantry block and do it by combat resolution) but the Destroyers are too fast. Meaning, I could get something behind enemy lines with Flying or Ambush or Scouts, but the Destroyers could be there pretty quickly or could intercept fliers.

    With my Lizardmen, I'd do Chamo Skinks. With my Ogres I'd do Maneaters. With my Daemon's I'd probably do Karanak/Flesh Hounds and Chaos Furies. Tomb Kings I'd do EBTS units and mostly the Stalkers as they are amazing at War Machines. It would depend on the Destroyers, as I would have expected you to do a tactic of forcing me to come to you (since most of the army is not mobile).

    Yup!

    Yeah... All good points and agreed.

    Yeah.

    In my opinion, the deployment stage of the game is the most important part of the whole game, seconded very closely by the movement phase.

    In the deployment, if you can force your opponent to finish before you get to your important units, you can set-up a win right there (modified by fast armies it's true and which is why I say movement is right there as a close number 2).

    The one tactic you can do (and you probably have done) with your Hobgoblins, is take a bunch of tiny units and use it to rule the deployment and then you can see where the potential counters to the Destroyers end up.

    Why?! I agree with @Imrahil keep going!
     
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  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Yeah, the 8th edition content on here has been fairly sparse as of late. It's nice to get some discussion going!

    Not sure if my 3 core units will be able to fully shield them as I attempt to castle my war machines into a corner. A corner castle is usually a sound gunline strategy. If I can force those opposing units to shoot through a screen, the -2 to hit modifier will largely nullify them (camo skinks won't like that, although it will do little against the stalkers). With more core units, it might be feasible, but probably not with what I have in my list. I guess the best I can do is try to place my units in a such a way that opposing scouts can't deploy too close.

    Of course, terrain setup can play a huge role here, either making it harder or easier to achieve.

    Trying to out deploy my opponent might work, but it will come down who I am facing. For instance, a WoC army can field 30 point Warhound units, while the cheapest unit we can field is a bare bones Hobgoblin unit at 80 points. In such a case, the CD general would have no real chance of pulling off the tactic, and might be stuck in a situation where their forces are spread too thin. I have used the strategy before (with my aforementioned WoC army) but I just don't see the Chaos Dwarfs as particularly well equipped to implement the strategy. Units like Warhounds are simply much better at it, being cheaper and much faster moving.

    Another deployment strategy is to create a setup that you go with regardless of enemy deployment. A preconceived deployment that is designed to work specifically with your army build. Create a shell to protect your back lines and force the enemy to come to you. I think the Chaos Dwarfs do have the necessary tools to maximize this strategy.

    An additional tactic is to use your Destroyer(s) to disrupt your opponent's deployment strategy by baiting him...
    • place a Destroyer off in a flank or away from where you plan to place your mainline
    • your opponent can't really ignore it as it is too much of a threat and counter-deploys against it
    • utilize the Destroyer's 18" march to quickly move it back into the position once the game starts, hopefully stranding your opponent's slower moving deployment drop in an unfavourable position
     
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  19. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    yep, an all-comers list with an all-comers deployment.
    usually it's fine with certain short-legged armies... dwarfs tend to do the same, their gun castle is more or less already thought and only "lesser" units (as copters) are placed to adapt to the situation.
     
  20. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Definitely! It's like a fine wine tasting afternoon ;)

    If you do a corner option then this would probably neutralize the scouts, vanguard and EBTS. I'm pretty sure ambushers could still show up there and cause havoc though... But still pretty good as the number of units with ambush is fairly small.

    It's true and it does depend on who you are facing. If you are going up against a cheap army like O&G then there's no way you're going to win that deployment fight, so don't even bother. Or Tomb Kings. But against an army that will be a genuine threat to that gunline like Dark Elves or High Elves it can be pretty effective.

    I quite like trying to bluff my opponent. What do I think that HE thinks I will field? And how will I play? I usually try to through in some wild cards that will be something he would not be expecting. Or double-bluff, as once I've done this then he'll be expecting something weird and I could go totally by-the-book strategy.

    This strategic list-building is easily my favourite part of the entire game. Trying to outthink a) what he will bring and do, b) what he THINKS I will bring and do and c) what I then want to do with my list building.

    It's right out of the Art of War, “All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.” It's a bit hard to do with Warhammer as there is a finite end to the table and he can look at your army book and see what units you can field (and you can't disguise strong units and weak ones or vice-versa, things like that), but you can try.

    True. That's a good one actually.

    This is a very good one. I quite like it actually as it's a perfect bluff to pull key units out of position and the Destroyer has the speed to bring it to an effective point rapidly. Nice!
     
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