8th Ed. Charging after flee is chosen.

[VampTeddy]

Hello - a question that probably has an obvious answer, i just can't seem to find it in the book.


Situation - Three units A, B and C are rather close to one another. Unit A is having it's turn, B and C belong to the opponent. A is close to B, very much so, and is also in charging distance of C.


Unit A charges unit B.

Unit B opts to flee!

Unit B flees through Unit C (who offcouse tests for panic).

Unit A rolls high enough to catch B - but would in this case hit C.

Now is this a failed charge? The only reference towards such is that a unit can get closer than 1" when charging, but i can't find the reference to having to charge that unit anywhere but under pursue and overrun, and unit A did neither.

We opted to go for the same reaction as when pursuing - but is this correct? does it instead count as a failed charge since the unit was unable to reach it's intended unit?.

 

[lbisson]

If Unit A didn't choose to attempt to redirect into Unit C, yes, failed charge. What you are describing is basically one of our core tactics with Skinks. Setting up the flee or double flee is critical for us.

So in your example:
A charges B
B chooses flee
A chooses their action, pursue or redirect
If pursue and C is is the way they must stop 1 inch away from C = failed charge.
If A successfully redirects they now choose to charge C, C chooses flee and presumable bounces through B escaping the pursuit. Therefore failed charge.

I think I got all of that right. Feels like a Monday.

 

[godswearhats]

Yep you got it right

 

[VampTeddy]

If Unit A didn't choose to attempt to redirect into Unit C, yes, failed charge. What you are describing is basically one of our core tactics with Skinks. Setting up the flee or double flee is critical for us.

So in your example:
A charges B
B chooses flee
A chooses their action, pursue or redirect
If pursue and C is is the way they must stop 1 inch away from C = failed charge.
If A successfully redirects they now choose to charge C, C chooses flee and presumable bounces through B escaping the pursuit. Therefore failed charge.

I think I got all of that right. Feels like a Monday.

Thanks a lot! My friend woudln't believe me when i said it wasn't stated anywhere and that this was how it had to work but he insisted it work like pursuit and i didn't want to say he wasn't right even though he had a clear lack of proof and i searched for it like a madman.

Now redirecting is always voluntary right? (i believe it says so clearly in the book but might as well ask).

 

[godswearhats]

Yes, redirecting is voluntary.

 

[rantapanda]

Regarding double-flee.
A game I had previously: I was doing the regular double flee manouvres as I'm used to. Skink1 group fled through Skink2 group who passed their panic check thus creating a block between Skink1 and the chargers.
My friend didnt redirect however. He stated that If he simply rolled high enough the Skink1 group would be caught (and destroyed) and the charger would just stop 1" from Skink2 group. I was a bit suprised but didnt challenge him cos it was late, I were tired and he quite fluffed his dice rolls so he could not even theoretically complete the charge.
I know he usually knows alot of the whfb rulings so I started to think how does the double flee strat go with the RAW. Can the chargers really destroy S1 even if they cant B2B them?

Well, p.22. regarding "Unusual situations", paragraph seems to make our double flee possible, and especially this: "If no amount of finagling can allow the unit to avoid the obstacle, the charge fails".

So seems like this our double-flee is RAW after all.

Just posting this in case another lizzieplayer faces a similar problem. Next time ill show my friend this as well.

 

[SilverFaith]

Regarding double-flee.
A game I had previously: I was doing the regular double flee manouvres as I'm used to. Skink1 group fled through Skink2 group who passed their panic check thus creating a block between Skink1 and the chargers.
My friend didnt redirect however. He stated that If he simply rolled high enough the Skink1 group would be caught (and destroyed) and the charger would just stop 1" from Skink2 group. I was a bit suprised but didnt challenge him cos it was late, I were tired and he quite fluffed his dice rolls so he could not even theoretically complete the charge.
I know he usually knows alot of the whfb rulings so I started to think how does the double flee strat go with the RAW. Can the chargers really destroy S1 even if they cant B2B them?

Well, p.22. regarding "Unusual situations", paragraph seems to make our double flee possible, and especially this: "If no amount of finagling can allow the unit to avoid the obstacle, the charge fails".

So seems like this our double-flee is RAW after all.

Just posting this in case another lizzieplayer faces a similar problem. Next time ill show my friend this as well.

My local group have had this question arise too, and we concluded that no, you cannot pursue, when the pursued target is now impossible to reach because of an obstacle (Which in this case, is another unit of skinks.)

Both in terms of rules and normal logic, this just made the most sense.

 

[hdctambien]

My local group have had this question arise too, and we concluded that no, you cannot pursue, when the pursued target is now impossible to reach because of an obstacle (Which in this case, is another unit of skinks.)

I'm probably saying the same thing as you here, but just to clarify:

When charging, you must actually come into contact with a unit that fled from your charge in order to destroy it

When *pursuing* a unit that breaks and fees from a combat, you only have to roll equal to or greater than their flee roll.

There are other differences in the interactions of feeling units and chargers/pursuers.

If you are charging and run into a fleeing unit that is *not* the unit you are charging, then your charge fails (this is why the double flee works)

If you are pursuing a broken unit and run into a different unit that is also fleeing, you destroy that unit (same situation as the double flee, but completely different results!).

This is where the confusion comes when people haven't seen the double flee maneuver. It works exactly opposite of how pursuit from combat works.

 

[Eyeless1]

This should be put into the tactica index if it isnt already (I havnt seen it). Im a new LM player and this thread here helped me to understand how to use skinks more than any of the other tactica threads I have read about them.

 

[themuffinman873]

Is the term pursue used identically in the instance of pursing after a unit who elects to flee a charge and pursuing after a unit who breaks from combat due to a failed LD roll? This does not seem right in the spirit of the game, seems like if you are trying to run down another unit and it brings you in contact with a fresh unit then you would get into combat with that unit. Much like how overrunning might work. Or do I have this wrong?

 

[hdctambien]

There are different rules about what happens when you encounter a 3rd unit in the two different cases.

It would make sense for both cases to work the same way, however the rules say otherwise.

When you are charging, a unit that is not the target if your charge counts as impassable terrain and can cause you to fail the charge (you are still charging here, not pursuing)

When you are pursuing and you encounter a unit that is not the unit that fled from the combat it counts as a new charge into that unit.

Weird, I know.

 

[themuffinman873]

Interesting, in the case of a pursuing unit running into another non-fleeing unit and counting that as a "new charge", would that also grant a charge reaction such as flee or stand&shoot? Or do we treat it like an overrun. Finally, would that pursuing unit who ran into a new non fleeing unit also get it's impact hits (if it was say a chariot?)

 

[Dyvim Tvar]

Interesting, in the case of a pursuing unit running into another non-fleeing unit and counting that as a "new charge", would that also grant a charge reaction such as flee or stand&shoot? Or do we treat it like an overrun. Finally, would that pursuing unit who ran into a new non fleeing unit also get it's impact hits (if it was say a chariot?)

Actually overruns are treated as pursuit into fresh enemy, not the other way around ...

In any event, if you either pursue or overrun into fresh enemy, that enemy unit can only chose to hold as a charge reaction. If it is already fleeing, it is destroyed if contacted and the overrunning/pursuing unit stops at the point of contact. Since pursuit/overrun into fresh enemy is treated as a charge, impact hits would happen in the first round of the ensuing combat.