As the topic title says, I have been thinking about lizards for a while, but also about Warriors of Chaos. I want to be convinced that Lizards are the best choice. Sure I understand choose the one that appeals to me, But they both do and they both don't at the same time. I am new to WHFB and I started in 8th edition, I do also have a Dark Elf army, I think that WoC look awesome, The models are great, but there doesn't seem to be much variety in the lists, Lots of Warriors and Lots of Marauders seems to be the way to go. but they are very powerful, Convince me Lizards are the way to go, Tell me their strengths and their weaknesses. Give me a run down of each phase, How do we fare in extended combat? is our low Init a big problem? What about skinks WS2 T2 is that a problem? Thanks in advance.
Re: Convince men on Lizard men. Let me just quote a friend of mine who recently decided to just put away his 4-5k worth of Chaos in favour of getting High Elves. He said that when I asked him why he was putting the Chaos away and when I said I basically do the same with my Lizardmen he responded with that I still have to think. What he meant is that Chaos is strong, but it's really monotone and boring to play. Anyway, I wouldn't think too much about skinks being at WS2 and T2. They're similar to goblins in that regard, being that they're an annoyance and when you send them a hard look they crumble. But as far as the army itself goes it's decent in combat, Saurus warriors can hold their ground well in extended battles more often than not while the army can pack quite strong magic usage, both offensive and defensive while packing fairly strong mid-low range shooting.
Re: Convince men on Lizard men. I think I'll chime-in on this. IMO, the main thing that drew me to Lizardmen is decent troop selection and versatality. We can be decent in magic with skink priests or we can practically dominate the phase with a slann, arguably the most powerful mage in-game on-par with Teclis. We have useful flying units in Terradons. Our Saurus blocks are in the top tier core infantry in the game. Our skirmish lines can be our most underestimated units by our opponents with poison attacks. Though it may look like we are short on artillary, it's awefully hard to say that our salamanders (basically living and mobile artillary) aren't effective with a flame template that shoots up to d10 inches of BBQ. We have variations even in our living war machine - the Stegadon. We even have an unusual troop selection in a Skrox unit - tough and strong kroxigors (which are usually special choice) that are bought with core points mixed with skinks. Though not the best in-game, our cavalry can be put to use as well for a flanking sweep-up or support. Now, even with javalins and blow pipes, a draw back with the Lizardmen would still be it's shooting phase. Although we do have poison attacks, we simply do not have the range that most armies do. Even our bow on our stegadon isn't used to great effect in 8th edition. However, aside from saurus, our army is fairly quick moving at 6 inches so closing the gaps on enemy units or positioning is a bit easier. Im sure others will add their opinions too, but this is my take on this army and the "why" of what drew me to it. - Lord Cedric
Re: Convince men on Lizard men. What is wrong with Cold one Cav? is it because you don't strike first on the charge? I use them in my DE army, but granted they have I6 and the ASF banner. But thank you Lord Cedric, I like the points you make. EDIT: Is the battalion worth the money?, if Cold one cav are useless?
The good points about Lizardmen generally are insanely powerful Mages, lethal bunkers for them that work even in close-combat, solid Core infantry options, decent monsters and Salamanders. That kinda ticks all the boxes when it comes to Fantasy. They are extremely expensive for what they do, Stupidity is extremely annoying, and Fear isn't nearly as potent as it once was. 8th has punished all cavalry, but CoC were already a marginal choice in 7th anyway. Temple Guard are just hands down a better investment, even without a Slann (assuming you're crazy enough not to take one). The battalion is actually a pretty good deal, even though the CoC are unfortunately useless. Get a pair of them, eBay the CoC, and you have a pretty good army base to work with; 40 x Saurus (two blocks) 24 x Skinks (two blowpipe units) 20 x Temple Guard (your bodyguard ready to go, just add Slann and maybe a Scar-Vet/Old-Blood bodyguard)
Are you serious? Stupidity? on 3 dice? LD 8? Can not even remember failing a stupidity test on 3 dice. Expensive for what they do? they are superior to Empire Cav. most armies will fail their fear test on a 8 so that is 42% of the time. Even LD 8 fails 33% of the time. AS 2 3 xattacks will fight and win vs most core infantry even from the front. I have broken Empire State troops, Orcs and Savage Orcs with CoR from the front. The enemy simply can not wound with Str 3 and our AS 2+ With 3 attacks will usually win and soon the enemy wont be steadfast. MY CoR do exceptionally well for me. Anyone who says CoR are not good, might want to reinvent how they use them! However, if you are comparing WoC to LM...WoC are currently one of the most abusive books available. Power level, there is not a book out there as good IMO as the WOC. Vamps were, but not so much in 8th and especially since their book will be out soon. LM have great infantry, great magic, decent monsters, good cavalry and crap shooting. Skinks are junk, krox are over priced. Sallys are devastating. I win a vast majority of my games with my LM. Love this army!
Re: Convince men on Lizard men. Yes, the battalion is definately worth it. Also, I didn't say that our CoC were "useless", but not the best in-game meaning that for the cost of what they do is a bit higher than what I'd like to pay for cavalry in comparison to other units that could be used by those points. But that is my personal opinion. Are they effective? Yes they are. With tougher spells and now no guesstimating distances combined with auto hits with some warmachines, cavalry are a big target though. Yes, you can give them a banner for more protection. But how many points are you willing to pour into a single unit to make it viable? Cavalry is stronger when it has a second rank for support. But that's doubling the points. At 35 points each 5 wide x 2 ranks, that's 350 points without any upgrades or banner. You can take a single rank but I would only use them for flanks and supporting charges (which I do depending on who/what I am playing against). In larger games (over 2500) I would field a unit of these. But in smaller games (2500 or less) it would be situational. In comparison, Bretonnian core cavalry (ALL Bret Cav have the Lance rule which in part grants ranks needing only 3 models wide and outside row lance attacks ), Knights of the Realm, are 24 points each which can ignore Panic caused by the peasantry and have armour save of 2+, have lances (+2 S on charge). Their specials, Questing Knights, are 28 points each can ignore Panic (same as above) and can reroll failed Psycology tests (they can have armour save of 2+ if hand weapon and shield, or 3+ if great weapon (+2 S and ASL)). And that's 7 points cheaper than ours. The Brets get their full 8" of momement and ours gets 7". Our Cold Ones have 1 more point in S and To and 1 less in I, cause Fear (not as important in 8th as it was in 7th, but still usefull) and Cold Blooded. In comparison to the riders (Questing Knights), we have 1 more point in To and Attack. We get spears (+1 S on charge) and hand weapon and shield. So, while stat wise ours is comparably better, overall it's not by much. For me it's not worth 7 more points per model in most situations. At 7 points difference with a full unit of 10 and no upgrades, that's 5 points shy of getting another Salamander which I'd rather have. Simply put, if our Cavalry were cheaper then they would be in my army more often. - Lord Cedric
YMMV. It's flat out retarded we pay so much for our cavalry, and yet, on a whim, they can derp and do nothing. Cold-Blooded helps, but when you examine other armies cavalry options (ie almost all don't have Stupidity), it's weaksauce. Lol no. Empire cavalry are a Core choice with S5 lances on the charge. If you upgrade to Inner Circle (a pretty popular option, as Empire Core is usually filled easily by Handgunners and Halberdiers), they're still cheaper and hit at S6 on the charge. Wow, you beat chaff infantry? No wai! Our Saurus can beat up enemy Core just fine, thats not what CoC are taken for. They're a heavy cavalry unit. Their role isn't to break Core units, they're supposed to go off killing monsters and enemy heavy infantry. Thats why they're a Special choice, they plug gaps in our army Saurus can't handle (just like every other support unit we take). As it plays out though, they're barely doing much on the charge, and they actually are worse than TG in protracted combats. Especially considering you'll never have more ranks than the enemy. Or wait for the next army book to give them lances, or a price downgrade, or most especially of all get rid of Stupidity. As it stands now, they only have mobility over TG, in every other way TG outperform them. Not really. WoC hate armour ignoring attacks, they're very infantry heavy (so you can grind them down, provided you can stomach the losses they'll inevitable incur), and they only have one warmachine (an awesome stone thrower, but its expensive and not a cannon). Yes, if you get into a straight infantry fight, and don't bring magic and/or warmachines, you will lose. WoC are designed to eat other infantry and even most monsters. Chosen are the Deathstar that eats other Deathstars. A properly constructed Empire or Dwarven gunline will wreck their face, and if you cast 'Dwellers' on the Chosen (especially after an 'Enfeeble' from another Wizard), they still evaporate. You just have to out-magic them. Infantry with strong ward saves (Teclis Phoenix Deathstar, Daemons) can also take on Chosen, even if only to tie them down so the rest of your army can focus on the squishier Marauders and excellent but not overwhelming Warrior blocks.
Cant remember the last time I have lost to the Empire or Dwarf. So, while gun lines are good, they use to intimidate me. not much any more. That said: We tend to play at 6-8k per army on a larger board with hidden deployment not the tiny 4x6 2,000 pt games. After playing with hidden deployment, it is usually pretty simple to beat those who dont. no cavalry in the game will break Elite style 2 attack TG/WoC infantry from the front. CoR will rape pretty much all core infantry. Empire knights wont. AND the spells you mention will wipe out a Saurus line even faster. Seriously, do you even play this game? They move 14" a turn where infantry move roughly half that. So they have wonderful uses the Saurus can not fulfill. further, I did not say saurus were not great vs other infantry...i was making a point that our cavalry CAN break infantry blocks from the front. Empire will not. Nor did i say that was the only role for the cavalry. your trying to be a smart ass got in the way of your brain on that one. Perhaps you also missed my point...no wait, no perhaps at all. you did. While Cavalry is not the all winning unit it was in 7th...CoR are (next to WoC cav) the best in the game. If you don't understand how to use them, well perhaps you should contemplate what you are doing wrong with them. Sure Empire are Str 6 on the charge (lance) . after that well they have Str 3 (shrug) . so saying a unit is great on the charge is faulty. The CoR are not going to break on the charge and That is ONLY IF the Empire knights get the charge. Play well and dont eat a charge. If you do, the empire has 1 shot. Perhaps you simply do not play well with them or the LM in general. Dont know...dont care. You mention you do not like them. makes me think you don't use them right. They kick ass for me, THAT is the primary difference in our points. shrug. But, as far as cavalry go, they are one of the very best in the game. CoR, for me help win games. But it has been a VERY long time since my LM have lost.
Well Cedric I should hope Brets have better Calvary, I mean they are the Calvary themed army after all.
Hehe. Yes, they are a cavalry theme. But that doesn't mean they cannot be compared. A 7 point difference is quite a margin especially comparing to a themed cavalry army. Looking at the Empire Knights with an Inner Circle upgrade which makes them a Special choice there is a 9 pt. difference to us. The Dark Elves Cold One Knights are and 8 pt. difference to us. So, if the "best" cavalry army has theirs 7 points less and the comporable Dark Elves at 8 points less.. I fail to see why ours costs so much more. This is why I am very selective on when to take our CoC. - Lord Cedric
Sometimes you just need the right tool for the right job. Sure screwdrivers work with screws, and you can pry things with them and you can beat nails with them if you use enough force, But sometimes I would really just want a hammer even if they are only good for a few things and they cost more.
He must roll terrible on his warmachines, or not bring enough. You don't even need to spam too hard to outgun Lizardmen to insane levels. Eh. As the game gets larger, you may end up having enough infantry to soak it. He's capped at six cannons, six mortars and six hellblasters (and 3 Stanks), so if he's already maxed out, then yes, you can potentially walk through it and eat him. Most people don't play at 6k though, 2.5 or 3k is more usual for 'large' games. Of course you don't charge the front rank, thats suicide. Steadfast is the 'i win' button of ranked infantry blocks in this edition. I wouldn't even charge Core units in the front, unless they're truly trash like Goblins or Gnoblars (and only if they're not some insane massive horde with great weapon characters hiding in the front rank). Inner Circle are pretty cost-efficient for monster and warmachine hunting. Bretonnians specialise in having faster-moving, harder hitting (for points/army slot) cavalry than everyone else. I'd definitely rate Grail Knights or even buffed Questing Knights hitting a heavy infantry unit in the flank. TG are pretty screwed against such cavalry unbuffed. Chosen eat everything in combat, so no, I don't consider them a good arbiter of 'good' cavalry. You never engage Chosen in combat by choice. When I say 'heavy infantry', I mean units that aren't trash Core (some armies have Core that fall into this category, WoC, OK and Dwarves are just a few). 4+ or better armour, S4/5, decent Weapon Skill and/or Initiative etc. Y'know, the kind of thing that rolls over unbuffed Saurus with a yawn, and outgrinds TG (we'll have less Guardians and don't hit as well unbuffed). Special choices usually. Thats what we worry about, because such units are ranked (so Stegs can't help) and TG are not numerous enough to risk it if you don't have a Life Slann (plus they can't be everywhere at once). Yep, which means I can't support them with magic, the EOTG, or the rest of the phalanx. Which means they have to operate under the assumption they're not getting any help. With say Camo Skins, or even Terradons, thats ok, because they have abysmal statlines and are pretty much suicide units (ie I'd never buff them). Mobility is an important asset, and it is something Lizardmen lack. However, for the exorbitant price you pay, you'd want them to hit hard. And not have Stupidity. And not revert to S4 in combat afterwards. And not have WS4. My counterpoint is that we don't need our cavalry to do that. Saurus grind away at most enemy Core just fine (buffed they can deal with some Special units too). We need CoC to do something else, ie kill warmachines, support other units in combat with a heavy infantry unit, intercept monsters etc. Also, insulting someone for having a different opinion, classy. Wut? Assuming such a WoC player is taking them (Chosen are worth taking in a huge block, so often there might not be points for such things), Chaos Knights laugh at our CoC. For 5pts more, they have WS5, S5 magical attacks in every round of combat, I5, still cause Fear, and have access to Marks. Tzeentch gets them 6+ ward, Khorne gives them Frenzy, Nurgle makes them harder to hit. Not as cost-effective as Chosen, but they still are some of the best heavy cavalry in the game. Also, Bretonnian Grail Knights want a word. Same statline minus the T4, they are S6 on the charge, 5+ ward against S5+ (ie the attacks that actually kill them), all for a 2pt discount. Stacked next to that (same price range, same role in respective army), CoC don't look good at all. YMMV. I'm not saying they can never be good (they still hit at Initiative, and don't cost 50pts+ per model so they're not Kroxigor bad), but it's really hard to justify fielding even a small unit. I kinda go for a phalanx approach, so anything not in the mutally overlapping 12" zone of awesome (AOE spells, supportive combats, BSB+General aura etc) has to fend for itself. CoC just sorta die pointlessly, or tie something up for a while. Most of my killing is done by TG, Salamanders and magic (Saurus and Skinks handle chaff and tie things up I can't kill straight away). One thing I might end up trying is a Kroq-Gar list. It means almost no magic, just EOTG and maybe another Priest for arcane caddy. Load up on Stegs (using points saved not taking TG bunkers), take a big unit of CoC for Core, fill in with Salamanders and Saurus. CoC fulfilling Core I can live with, they're definitely better than Saurus at the very least.
Haha. Interesting analogy. Being an armourer, leathermith, and all-around shop kinda guy I find this amusing. I agree that sometimes the circumstances call for the CoC and I DO take them for those situations. So we can agree on that point. While I really do like our cavalry (I prefer cavalry style army lists.. always have), pretty much my only gripe is how much they cost especially comparable to other armies. And, as you and I have both mentioned, depending on the situation, they may very well be worth it. I would prefer to field them every time. But it's not always cost effective for me to do so. If it works out for you or anyone else. Great! It's just simply not the way I build my lists. - Lord Cedric