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8th Ed. Ethereal and Killing Blow

Caprasauridae
Stegadon

Caprasauridae

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Hello, you lustrous people of this forum!

There is an interesting debate going on in the Tomb Kings forum, about whether or not a model with Killing Blow rule, but no magic weapon harm a model with Ethereal rule. Here's the link to the debate:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=13609&st=0

The logic behind this rules interpretation is that you cannot wound an Ethereal character with a mundane weapon, but Killing Blow is not wounding anything, it slays the the target. I personally think while that not any of the rules I can remember refute this and that there is a loophole, I wouldn't use it this way. It just feels... wrong. What are your thoughts? Is our Slann in peril?

Please, check out the original debate before you comment "Nooo, you need to wound in order to slay, noobs!" and give references to the rulebook.
 
Can Etherials even be hit by a mundane weapon ?
because if they can't even be hit, surely they can't be killed.
 
I haven't seen a rule where it says they cannot be hit. The Ethereal rule only talks about wounding.
 
Why thankyou Caprasauridae, I've never been called lustrous before. :)

Considering that the 'automatic slay' occurs within the To Wound roll, and is therefore like a sub-rule to that particular phase, it falls under the rules for being wounded. I'd say a model with ethereal cannot be slain by a mundane weapon with Killing Blow.

Plus, from a non-pedantic perspective, anything that is slain would have to have been wounded by something. So even if it isn't stated in the rules per se that the opponent is wounded when it rolls a 6, thinking about it how else would it die?

I think this is a case where a potential loop-hole is trying to be exploited disproportionately. If you want to play a battle game then there are certain prerequisites that are in force: logically, if a sword can't hurt a Ghost normally how is it going to suddenly slay it outright?
 
You are welcome, Slanputin (awesome username, by the way)!

You are saying that you cannot make the To Wound roll because you cannot wound? Even if you cannot wound, nothing forbids you making that roll and if you roll 6, Killing Blow taking an effect.

ETHEREAL
...Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects....
Click to expand...

The key word seems to be the one I made bold: effect. If Killing Blow is an effect, then it, by the Rules As Written, can kill an Ethereal being.
 
Ha, thanks! I happened to be listening to Boney M at the time of my regsitration and I thought such a Slann would be pretty awesome :P

Does it mean any, normal effects or magical ones? If it means "normal" then Killing Blow would work. Considering the context of the rule it could also mean only "magical" effects, in which case it wouldn't unless Killing Blow was attributed to a magical weapon.

There's nothing to stop you making that To Wound roll. I was just stating that because it takes place within the To Wound roll, and the Ethereal rules state that it can only be wounded by magical attacks, spells etc, the fact that you're rolling on something where the wound would otherwise be discounted because it's mundane should also mean the slaying itself should be placed under a similar context.
I am aware there is a dinstinction between 'wound' and 'slay', and other effects require a roll on To Wound too (like some spells I believe?). However whether other effects actually impact as well really means it comes down to whether the Ethereal rule allows any effect or only magical effects have an impact. Here we loop back to the previous point. If these other effects don't have to be magical, then neither does Killing Blow.

I just realised the 'Instant Kills' rule could be used to refute my point:

'Instant Kills'
Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties (after failing a Ld or T test, for example). Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant — just remove the model from play, and hope for better luck next time!
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, this particular rule does not take into account the unique aspect of the Ethereal rule: a distinction between mundane and magical To Wound rolls has been made, something seemingly not taken into account by this rule. Disregarding this dinstinction in favour of a Killing Blow that affects Ethereal renders the Ethereal rule inert, however this isn't something the Instant Kill rule states can happen: 'no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise)' can occur, but it doesn't say anything about additional rules - Ethereal isn't a type of save. Plus, the distinction between mundane and magical weapons is an important aspect for other rules so I don't see why it should be disregarded for one particualar rule. This somewhat muddies the waters (unsurprisingly considering the amount of clashing rules out there already), which annoyingly leads us to reference 'The Most Important Rule'.

From the perspective of 'The Most Important Rule', and going back to my in the previous post, I don't see how a warrior whose attacks with a mundane weapon that would normally leave the Ethereal unaffected would suddenly have a burst of skill that slays it with the same weapon.
 
Think there was some ruling about killing blow and challanges,
it went something like killing blow counts a doing all the wounds
on a models profile as overkill/combat resolution, or something like that...
 
I agree with you, Slanputin. I asked about the effect on the Tomb Kings forum, and was pointed out that what the effect entitles doesn't actually matter, since the Ethereal rule says it can only be wounded by magical stuff and effects. But it is not about wounding, that much has been established. It is about slaying out right, without the need of the wounding rules of Warhammer.

Of course in real life slaying would automatically include wounding. But Warhammer differentiates from real life, greatly. That's what my Warsphinx or Hierotitan thinks when they are killed by poison...

And n810, I couldn't find that FAQ rule but I think it says "for the purposes of combat resolution only" at the end of the sentence, so it doesn't really answer this question.
 
I was thinking it might have insuinated tht KB causes wounds.
 
omg I'm a Skink!! :)

Anyway, yes I think I may have gone a bit too much into 'effects' halfway through the second paragraph. I was trying to see how best to marry the KB and Ethereal rules and was trying to see how the wording may do so in context. I think the point still stands about rolling under To Wound means it still adheres related rules: it must be magical to work against Ethereal (unless it's a characteristic test etc). I'm concerned I may making be too many presumptions however.

Thinking about it, and this is probably somewhat reductive, if the Ethereal rules state that "Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects", then maybe KB does work as it has nothing to do with wounds. Unless, of course what n810 said is true, then maybe it can be discounted.

Yes, Poisoned Attacks against metal/stone units does seem a tad unfair, unfortunately the rules for PA leave a lot less room for interpretation than KB!
 
I may have missed a change of wording in the FAQ (I don't see the word "ethereal" anywhere in the LM FAQ), but Higher State of Consciousness doesn't give a Slann "the ethereal rule", everyone just calls it that for simplicity.

The rule as written in my book is: "Only magical attacks have any effect upon the Slann"

So if the killing blow didn't originate from a "magical attack" then it seems to me that it would have no effect.

If the Slann *were* to actually be ethereal, then he would also have magical attacks, be able to pass through impassible terrain, and could not have his movement slowed by anything. That would be a whole lot more bang for the buck.

Maybe the Vampire Counts need to worry about non-magical killing blow, but I think our Slann is safe.

That being said ... should we try to argue that a Spell is not an "attack" and therefore can have no effect (good or bad, I suppose)? That probably crosses the same line that the TKers are toying with.
 
@ Slanputin

* Skinks use many kinds of poison.
(nerotoxin, acid, holly water, etc...) ;)
 
I suppose Holy/Blessed poisons cold bring down a magical constructs, and metal/stone can be dissolved by chemical weathering of course! I'll just say Skinks use some mega jungle poison that's a mix of all of them :P
 
Oh, great catch, hdctambien! Of course you are right, it doesn't say anywhere that the Slann is actually Ethereal. I just totally forgot that since people always call it that. By the way, I think that spells that harm (i.e. cause wounds) are attack spells, and thus count as attacks.

This was also discussed in the Vampire Counts forum, but was really quickly dismissed:
http://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Killing-Blow-and-Ethereal
 
Interesting info from the Vampire Counts forum:
Also special rules/abilities like red fury state that an attack that automatically kills a model (like killing blow), counts as having caused as many wounds as the model had left on their profile
Click to expand...

This seems to verify n810's previous post about KB.

I'm going with KB cannot affect Ethereals unless it's attributed to a magical weapon.
 
raise it on the warhammer main forum there will be an faq telling us it doesn't in a few days
 
In terms of Poison... You could also argue that poisoned attacks auto-wound on a 6 when rolling to hit, and therefore could wound an ethereal creature in the same manner as the Killing Blow argument. So if someone makes the Killing Blow argument, rebuttal with your Skinks!
 
No, not really. You cannot auto-wound if you cannot wound. The whole Killing Blow argument is about the Killing Blow slaying and not wounding. But like I said, I think the wording is a bit of a brain fart and at least I don't want to play it that way.
 
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