Hi there I'll soon face the new ogres of a friend of mine. We'll play about 600 points. Since I got no clue about ogres I'm going to search some help here. What should I play with? I thought about a block of saurus, some chameleons, skink squirmishers and a sala. For the leader I'm not quite sure if I should take a priest or a scar vet. Would teradons make sense at all? What is he likely to play and what should i take care about? Oh man, i'ts a long time since I played
Saurus are always a good choice. Chameleons will do ok as well. You should go heavy on skirmishers becasue the poison shots will really ruin his day. The salamander is not very effective against multiwound models as he only tests when he loses a model. You could maybe proxy the sally as a razordon. Be aware that butchers are immune to poison. At 600 points, that should be the only caster you see. Chameleons are a must to take out any war machines that he may bring (scraplauncher or iron blast cannon). Hope that helps.
Keep in mind that if you don't take the ironblaster down right away, your chameleon skinks are dead. Take at least 2 units of 8 if you are building specifically to go against ogres. The Strength 10 moving grapeshots will be ruining your day otherwise.
First of all thank you guys for the replies! I tried to put together an army list. Would be grate if you could comment or correct. I'm quite insecure because I never played much and just restarted :/ ----- Saurus Scar Vet Shield, Piranha Blade, Dragon Helm 133 14 Saurus Warriors Spear, Full Command 198 11 Skink Skirmishers 77 8 Chameleon Skinks 96 8 Chameleon Skinks 96 That would make exactly 600 points.
Hope I'm not too late with this, but I just had to toss my two pence in here. A lot depends on the kind of player you are up against. Is it even remotely a friendly game? If so, read the part labled one. However, if you think the ogre player is going for as brutal a smackdown as possible, go to two. *PART ONE* At 600 points, your opponent will either need to bring 60 gnoblars, in which case you won't really have to worry, or at least 4 bulls or ironguts in order to fill out the core bit. Odds are, that no matter what kind of character he picks, it will be plonked in that unit for protection and extra hittyness. Equally probable, this unit will be made a bit bigger to be actually effective, which means it will take up a lot of points (for a 600 point game) very quickly. This of course means you will be up against your everyday close combat death star with added herosauce. and with at least half the enemy army being a single low leadership unit, salmander salmander salmander salmander. Not too many though, since it would be what could be considered an extreme dick move in a friendly game. Besides, one or two should be more than enough to make even a firebelly run for cover. *PART TWO* Of course, there is always a chance that you'll be facing something like an ironblaster, which can be best described as "pretty <expletive of your choice> nasty". As mentioned before, the thing will blast iron, almost invariably at skinks, since most of not all ogre players have an (irrational?) fear of the things. This, together with the possibility of him NOT taking a bruiser for whatever reason pretty much shapes your army. Between an ironblaster, scraplauncher, leadbelchers and mages, there's a lot of things that might be there to beat your game winning block of saurus to death before it can serve a bowl of fresh break test to his core-with-probably-a-general. You might think this means you should get a lot of war machine hunting chameleons to shut them down, and a skink priest for some antimagic. I would, however, argue against this. No matter what you throw at his shooty bits, almost all of them strangle you to death with your own intestines in close combat if you annoy them enough, and will otherwise just ironblast or fireball you away with contemptous ease. It might save you turn or two of shooting, or shut down the shooty completely if you are really lucky, but all in all this is a huge waste of resources, since your expensive units will then do nothing useful but cheer your saurus on for the rest of the battle. A better solution to the problem is one that a typical ogre would appreciate for it's straightforward brutality: more saurus: more beatdown. you can easily field a full size unit of saurus (left to your imagination) at 600, and have points left for a couple of skinks, a hero, and even some chameleons just for the heck of it. Using some skinks as a shield against things with ballistic skills, or otherwise as a much much cheaper source of neener-neener than chameleons by harassing everything but the main course, march your saurus across the board as quick as you can. Sure, a bundle of them might die to stray forks, chunks of magma, or bits of metal, but a decent bundle of them should make it all the way across to complete the great plan of the old ones known in the prophecies as "Slappin' som' ogahs, boo ya!" And if for some bizarre reason he decides to focus fire on something that is not a saurus, just make sure it's not too close to your saurus, because everyone knows that panic tests on cold blooded eight might be statistically easy to make, but in practice a bottomless pit of failure when it actually matters, and you should be good to go. As for your general, either a skink or a saurus would suffice. But remember that although that skink might get a game changing buff off, or stop that horrible maw from being cast on your saurus, it'll probably not happen, and his squishyness plus general bonus mean he'll be 200+ free victory points if some kitties tag along with the ogres. For a scar-veteran, you need to realise one thing: He is part of your saurus unit. General kill-bonus? yes. A great target for a great weapon? Yes. A pretty big investment on 600, so you instinctively want to protect him? Yes. But he is not vital. Let me repeat that again: He is not vital. Of course that doesn't mean he should be used for target practice, but it does open up a few important points: Cheap is good. It means that you'll be able to fit a few more saurus or skinks in there, and you'll really feel the extra models more than the extra strength at that level. Although fencers blades or shiny armour might keep him alive a turn longer when everyone wants to "kill dat lizzurd ded", toughness 5 and a pretty good armour save without magic trinkets will keep him going most of the time, and if you're rolling bad, odds are those magic trinkets wouldn't have changed it. Besides, a bruiser would be you but tougher, so you'll not be winning that headbutting contest anytime soon. A great weapon here and a potion of foolhardiness there, on the other hand, doesn't cost you a lot, but will help you rack up a few more vital combat resolution points before you are turned into a greasy paste. And that's if he decides to target your scar-vet at all, in which case he'll score less wounds than he would have on your saurus, so you should be grateful. You could of course opt for the crown of command for that extra security if you do happen to lose a round of combat, but honestly, you should never lose a round of combat. Not to say that it'll never happen, but if it does, it means the big mean ogres will have punched a big enough hole in your fighty unit that your biggest advantage will be removed. After that it'll probably only go worse, so best to avoid it altogether. *LONG STORY SHORT* Saurus are your friends, even if they don't both start with an F. A skink is fine too. Units are like steaks: bigger is better Also: Saurus. Chameleons are not worth double their cheaper cousins. Not right now at least. It doesn't really matter all that much what kind of general you take. Well, it does, but not in the win percentage changing way, really. You can rely on the brute force of your cheap saurus to completely overpower anything he will throw at you. Really. and some closing thoughts: Either take a bunch of saurus (23 to 30 does the trick) or none at all. A small unit will give you the same problem your opponent has: small units don't really make the impression needed. If you have your focal unit, the rest is just for fun, really. Take a dozen jungle swarms for all I care, as long as it annoys your opponent, keeps him off balance and you have fun zipping it around the table it does all that it needs to do and more.
I agree that the Saurus block should be a bit larger, otherwise it looks like a great list, especially with the Piranha Blade. I would strongly advice against spears on those Saurus though, hand weapons are the superior choice, even more so in a unit that small. I disagree that regular skinks are more cost effective than chameleons though, since I've started using Chameleons I've never looked back. The ability to scout is crucial for a 12" shooting unit, the Chamos also let you march to about 10-12" inches away from your enemy and still fire two shots making it alot easier to keep them safe and effective. At 600 you have 150 points of hero allowance. In theory that would let you squeeze in this Scar-Vet: Scar-Vet - Cold One, Armor of Fortune, Great Weapon I think the Piranha Blade is a good option against ogres regardless, but this guy would give you alot of flexibility, and be immune to stomp with 1+, 5++ saves and str 7.
Usually, chameleons are worth their weight in gold, yes, but the problem here are the ogres. With war machines that are both tough as nails, and capable of smearing chameleons across the landscape, you'd need to take a lot of them for it to work. And frankly, at 600 points a lot of chameleons eat away a lot of point that could best be spent elsewhere. Having one, or preferably a few small units of skinks is superior, since whilst they might not do the same damage, you are not planning on using them solely as some sort of blowdart missile platform. Sacrificing a unit, or using one to goad an opponent into an unlikely charge are just as vital, if not more so, to a game with only one focal unit on both sides, since the positional advantage wins the game more than even a dead war machine would. Much as I love fielding scar veterans on cold ones, here again the issue of the war machines pops up. Being immune to stomp doesn't do you a fat lot of good if you are blasted from the saddle by a cannonball in turn one, and boy can those ironblasters snipe. Whilst killing blow might be less killing than the ironblaster, it's still not something I would willingly expose my general to, doubly so if he still needs to help me win the game. Whilst hand weapons might usually be the better option, and as stated moreso with small units, it's worth noting that against bulls (or ogres, if that's your cup of tea) spears give you a bit of an edge (not against ironguts though)
I think you're slightly overestimating the amount of warmachines a 600 point Ogre army can field. Building your entire list on the threat of him maybe having this and that unit is never a good approach in my experience. 2 units of saurus is crippling pointwise at 600. The Scar-Vet would be able to take on a small unit of bulls or a warmachine by his lonesome, and he does have a ward save, so its by no means a sure thing that he will die should you face a cannon. On the skirmisher vs chameleons I would choose a unit of 6 Chamos at 72 pts over a unit of 10 skirmishers at 70 pts any day of the week, and for any purpose, to say that Chamos are purely warmachine hunters is to diminish their worth. The only reason for me to take the skirmishers would be to fill up the core selection or to bunker a Skink Priest.
As noted in my first post, I don't actually expect the war machines, unless the opponent is going for the kill; the saurus vs ogre core block is the part of the fight that matters most. I suppose that chameleons vs skirmishers is purely a matter of taste, with both units capable of the entire spectrum of nasty skirmishyness that skinks are famous for, depending on if you want the extra wounds and numbers, or the more elite scoutyness of the chameleons, but as noted above anything beside saurus is mostly for fun. On the cold one though, I have to disagree. Whilst the ward save gives a bit of protection against war machines, there are more than enough things that still have a chance to kill the scar-vet off, which is a risk that you should not take in this case, and having him stomp off is a nice idea on paper, but rarely ever needed or wanted in practice.
Like what? The cannon seems to be the only thing that springs to mind. T5, 1+, 5++ is not easy to get through. Having him on the Cold One doesn't mean he HAS to roam, but it gives you the option. Even in staying in the Saurus unit the Cold One build is a very solid and cost effective one. But.. to each his own, and as I said I think the Piranha Blade is a great choice aswell.
Hey Guys frist of all thanks a lot for your very detailed answers! It was gereat to read and learn by doing so. As I said, I'm kind of a newbie ;o) We decided to rise the points a bit, so we are around 750 points now. I tried to adapt some of the things you said. The saurus block is bigger now and I threw out the chameleons and took some salas instead. As I got some more points now, I'm not sure if I should take a priest as well. Due to the points he would be naked though. But as Ejpok did the same in his list, I thought it could work. What do you think, would that be ok or should i put the points into skinks or even more saurusses? The actual list would be: Saurus Scar-Vet Shield, Piranha Blade 123 Skink Priest 65 26 Saurus Warriors Spear, Full Command 342 10 Skink Skrimishers 70 Salamander hunting pack extra herder 80 Salamander hunting pack extra herder 80 That would make 760 points.
Getting the Skink Priest in there is great, and that sort of ends the Scar-Vet discussion. I honestly doubt that the Salamanders are going to give you any mileage against Ogres. Skinks/Chamos on the other hand are a nightmare for Ogre units with high toughness an low armor saves. I would at the very most include 1 salamander, and fill in as many Skinks/Chamos as possible. Maybe even consider taking Terradons to flank/rear charge any warmachine chariots you encounter, and to give you a redirecter to avoid taking those impact hits. Razordons are another option as mentioned earlier. The saurus unit is at sort of an odd size and I stand by the hws being superior generally. Spears are more viable against ogres, but I wouldn't kit up my models with spears just on the basis of one specific matchup, your decision ofcourse. At 750 I think I would go with 23(6x4) with the Scar-Vet in there.
Ok, next try ;o) Saurus Scar-Vet Shield, Piranha Blade 123 Skink Priest 65 23 Saurus Warriors Full Command 283 10 Skink Skrimishers 70 10 Skink Skrimishers 70 5 Chameleon Skinks 60 Razordon Hunting Pack 80 That would make 571 points and would be a razordon-premiere to me
Much better, You're 0,5 points over your hero allowance, but I guess that could be defended by the rounding up rule in the BRB. To bring the list under the 750 mark you could skip the champion in the saurus block, remove a skirmisher unit and add another Razordon /w snack in the unit. Razordons benefit greatly from numbers. Good luck with the battle.