Okay been playing my friend in 2000 point games. He is using Warriors of Chaos with Marks of Tzeentch. My problem is he NEVER really moves his guys, he makes me come to them. Meanwhile he uses Lore of Tzeentch and Hellcannon to wreck my army. So first off, What do I do VS a Hell Cannon? Secondly Any Advice on overall. I usually try to use my Death Slann to panic him off the board seeing how he doesn't usually move. It's worked a few times.
For the hellcannon, chameleons. maybe 3 units of 8 or 10. That will give you plenty of shots to get the poisons in. Once you take out the cannon, he has to move. Another option is to take Tetto'ekko and a Heavens slann. Use iceshard blizzard to block his shots from the hellcannon. In the meantime, spam comets and decimate him while he tries to sit there. Take Lore of life and dwellers below his main forces. Take Lore of Death and a solo slann and purple sun his forces. Take shadow and use the pit of shades on his cannon and his forces. Take lore of Metal and use his high armor saves against him. Take lots of skirmishers and annoy the hell out of him. Hope some of this helps.
How high are those armor saves? I'm likely to be playing WoC fairly often over the next few months and that would be handy info.
Chaos Warriors come in at a 3+. Marauders come in at a 5+. The horsemen come in at a 4+. Not sure on the heroes and lords. Or the special/rare choices. The hellcannon has a 4+ (the crew has a 5+).
Yeah I tried with the Following. 24 Block of Saurus Warriors with Scar-Vet Scar-Vet Cowboy - Cold One, Crown of Command, Dragon Helm, and Luck Stone Slann with 18 Temple Guard Ancient Stegadon with Blowpipes Salamander with Extra Handler (Order a second one, waiting for it to come) Skrox Unit - 28 Skinks and 2 Kroxigors (6x6 formation) ------------------------ What Happened Moved up Forces, Cast Doom and Gloom on his Marauder Horde with his Sorcerer Lord on Disk. (Lasted Whole game) He Shot at my Stegadon with his Hell Cannon and hit. Luckily only took 1 Wound from the D6 Multiple Wounds. Saurus Group took some Casualties from Hellcannon or Infernal Gateway... Don't Remember. He charged my Skrox with a small group of Chaos Knights with ensorcelled weapons, they held out but where overrun. They were in a Marsh when he Overran and he lost the remaining Knights to Dangerous Terrain Test. Magic failed pretty hard for me the whole game. Then he shot up my Stegadon with his Hell Cannon and killed it while it was in combat with Chaos Knights (he was aiming at a Salamander initially which just recovered from fleeing) Got a my first Miscast with a Slann Equipped with Cupped Hands and had him in Line of Sight... Rolled a 1. *facepalm* Nuked a bulk of my Temple Guard. After that I gave the game to him. He didn't move his Marauder Horde with Sorcerer, his Hell Cannon (which was at the far corner of the board), or a group of his other Chaos Knights the whole game. ------------------------ Next time I will bring in my 2 Units of 6 Chameleon Skinks and Try out a Squad or two of Blowpipe Skink Skirmishers. Hopefully will get my other Salamander by the next game Sunday. Any advice on Taking a Unit of Two Salamanders Vs Two Separate Salamander Parties?
My main army is WoC. If you find yourself relying on panic tests then its a bad plan as the WoC army rule is they get to re-roll any panic tests. The army has an average of LD8. If its just one hellcannon you shouldnt really have too much to worry about. Sure they can hit hard, but its just a small template. You will easily be able to out shoot their army! The only other units in WoC that shoot are marauder horsemen and they are weak. Lore of metal will be great vs WoC. If hes running Mark of Tzeentch on his units then generally they'll be equipped with shields so they get 5++ ward/parry saves in close combat. Which in turn also means 3+ armour saves. You could big damage to warriors wounding on 3+ or essentially take out a unit of knights with searing doom wounding on 2+. Marauders are easily harrassed, good use of skirmishing skinks could make short work of them. Especially aided by the lore of metal spell Echanted blades of Aiban. +1 to hit with shooting and armour piercing will eat them. Most WoC players run them in hordes of 40-50 with mark of khorne and GW. Sometimes people will put light armour on them but not often so rarely they might have a 6+ armour save at best. So redirecting them and shooting them to bits is the way to deal with them if that is the case. they will shred in CC with a max of 41 attacks WS4 and S5. If they are 5 wide and deep in ranks it will be sword and shield with light armour and mark of tzeentch to be used as an anvil. Just redirect and shoot. Warriors will generally be the biggest worry. they are the best core infantry in the game. Completely versitile. Only real weakness being that they are slow (M4). Try to set them up for favourable combat situations. Your saurus and even temple guard will lose toe-to-toe. you have to whittle them down first. Often people will send out warhounds as fodder to be shot at instead of their warriors. Most people run them in blocks of 18 or 24 with shields and halberds. shields for more armour vs shooting and halberds for more strength in combat. in a block of 18 (6x3) with mark of nurgle (-1 to be shot at and -1WS to opponent in CC) and banner of rage (frenzy) you'll be looking at 25 attacks at S5. most often hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's. Pick your battles against them. Hexs on them and augments on you. Make sure you bring your Cupped hands for your slann. If you miscast, most WoC players will make you pay with their Infernal Puppet item. With this they can modify any miscast roll by D3. They'll be able to modify their own rolls on the table too but you dont want to be rolling on it if it can be helped. Not often do you see WoC sitting and shooting, its pretty much the opposite of how the army is designed in my opinion. You should easily be able to out shoot him. Keep shooting him until he feels compelled to move, then redirect him in to combat situations that favour you. Large deep units of skinks can be good for an anvil providing you can remain steadfast allowing a hammer to hit the flank.
Good Post, Thanks nzkoston! I'll work on it. He's played 40k before so he has a bit more strategy than me.... that and he is the kind of guy who always beats me in chess so he can plan ahead a bit. Just got my Second Salamander in the mail. =P
Great post earlier, I would second the Lore of Metal choice. Lore of Heavens could also be extremely nasty, those comets have won games for me by themselves and if he refuses to move...a massive hunk of flaming rock might convince him.
I am giving Lore of Metal a try this league (we only get to pick 2 Lores for entire league) and it has been hit and miss. However, when it does hit it is awesome. Final Transmutation has won me a couple of games. 3 weeks ago vs. WoC - Warriors - General, BSB and 8+ turned to Gold. 2 week ago vs. WoC - Turn 6 "Hail Mary" shot on his Chaos Lord on a Disk - Turned to Gold on a single 6. 1 week ago vs. WoC Hell Cannon misfired top of turn 1, subsequent miscast sucked my Slann into the Warp on double 1's. Win Some Lose Some. All Lore of Metal Attacks count as Magical and Flaming, so there is extra bonus benefits beyond just working well against Armour; if he brings Trolls you have an answer for Regeneration. Giving Skinks 5+ Scaly Skin is always nice as well.
WoC are my regular opponent, and he's just started bringing a Hellcannon too. Some thoughts from my first games against it. In addition to nzkoston's excellent write-up, I can really only give a couple of tips. Spread out. You don't have to deploy in a giant, template-baiting block. The Hellcannon has a small template that scatters. Deploy your units in two long lines and keep them that way until the battlelines close. This both minimises the number of models the template can touch, and maximises the chances of scattering and missing. A shooting Hellcannon isn't nearly as worrisome as a Hellcannon in combat. Remember that. Every turn it is shooting is a turn it isn't moving closer to thunderstomp a unit into the dirt. And the more it shoots, the more likely it is to misfire. Choose magic wisely. I've been trying Light recently, and Banishment - even with only one Slann - is invaluable against all those Marks of Tzeentch (it forces them to re-roll ward saves). Lore of Metal is also an excellent call, though you can pretty much guarantee he will throw everything at stopping Searing Doom. Burning Gaze is also easier to get off, though of course weaker. There's also Pha's Protection. I find Light has more utility than Metal in the buffing department, but your mileage may vary. There's always Life, and Flesh to Stone is always useful, but the Lore overall is not very aggressive and I find cedes a lot of the initiative. Unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do about lore of Tzeentch - arguably one of the most broken Lores now. A cheap level 1 skink priest with a dispel scroll or scroll of warding might be a good idea against Infernal Gateway; alternatively, running an MR3 item on your Temple Guard/Slann. A feedback scroll is a good idea in theory, but considering he probably has a 3+ ward its probably not worth it. Consider giving your TG the +1 movement banner and your Slann Becalming, and trying to pin his lord down asap. You shouldn't need to worry about Treason of Tzeentch: units that are immune to psychology (TG + Slann) can't be affected, against Saurus Warriors it rarely does much damage (24 models, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 dead on average), and against anything else its affects are negligible. Chaos Warriors are great, there's no doubt about that. There are a lot of things they don't like, however. Ancient Stegadons, especially if they have a Skink hero with a War-Spear, will ruin their day, as will Salamanders and Lore of Metal. They are superior to Saurus Warriors, but with some buffs from Life (Flesh to Stone), or Light, you should win. Temple Guard with a Razor Standard should beat Warriors nine times out of ten: start adding buffs in there and its a guaranteed win. Even if they don't, Cold-Blooded Re-rolls on stubborn Ld9 will mean they stick around indefinitely. You already seeem to realise how good Skrox are at blocking cavalry, so no need to mention anything else there ^^ I probably wouldn't bother with two Scar-Vets at this level. Bring one on foot and use the remaining points to bulk out your TG or get some camo skinks and an additional Salamander.
I played a 2k game vs WoC last night. A few things i can confirm from that. Slann-Mage with lore of Metal was amazing against them. He went heavy with 2 large blocks of warriors. He had Festus in one of those units which gave that unit 5+ regen but thanks to metals flaming damage it made short work of the warriors. Great lore against warriors. Had a skink priest with a buff and a hex from heavens which proved to be the difference maker against a unit of warriors vs temple guard. Final transmutation was amazing against warriors, they also failed a couple of stupidity checks in subsequent turns which meant more chances for shooting and magic kills. You will definately need assistance against Warriors. Head to head you will get torn to bits everytime. I had 6 warriors tar-pitted but a deep unit of skinks and flank charged them with a block of 18 saurus. Both of my units failed to get a wound and he tore my skinks to bits granting lots of CR. I did have steadfast rolls in which the skinks passed but the Saurus failed (rolled cold blooded 5,6,5 ugh!).
Just started up with painting modeling and gonna be playing again soon. Glad to see this thread has still stuck around and has some solid advice on it. Thanks All.