8th Ed. Here we go again!

[DanBot]

For all of you that remember my other posts here, my crazy VC friend strikes again! This one is a lot less bazzar and hypothetical though.

Here we go, so in the VC lore there is a spell that reduces a unit's WS and some other stats by 1. But for this question the only thing that matters is the WS. In the book it says what happens when a model's stats hit 0. If a model's STR or T becomre 0 the model is removed as a casualty. If it's BS or WS is 0 it can not attack in that phase.

His entire army causes fear. So the problem is if he casts that on a unit and then you fail a fear test, is your WS 1? Or is it 0? Originally I gave it no thought and said 1. But he says he always thought stat modifiers were static modifers seperate from the number. So it would be -1 to whatever WS the model has. Again I just dismissed it and said no. It's not. The original WS is just subtracted by 1 after the spell and then set to 1 when you fail fear. Then he started appling it to other cases and his side made more sense. And was actually how I would think those cases would work. Most memorable, If the Tomb Kings cast the spell that reduces my warrior's T by 1 it would become 3 until his next magic phase. Then it will be returned to 4. Not static modifier. It is applies once. Then on my magic phase I cast Flesh to Stone. Once time applied. Making it 5.
Now the arguement from here discussed between VC players goes 3 ways. First: When the spell wares off, if it is a non static one time effect that would return it to 4 when his spell wares off. The spell doesn't say when it wares off add one to the unit's toughness. It says put it back to normal. The only way it would go to 6 is if the +2 was static and seperate from the base toughness. Secondly: They say it would stay at 5. You would return the base toughness to 4. But the modifier from the slann's spell is a one time addition of 2. It wouldn't change if it isn't seperate. Third and how I would assmue it, when it wares off the toughness would become 6. 4(-1)(+2) Then the (-1) goes away making it 4(+2). So they say the same applies to fear and the VC's spell. WS 3(-1) after they cast. Then when you fail the test, 1(-1). Even when they talk about stat modifiers in the book it sounds almost like an object seperate from it's base stat. Almost like a +2 counter placed on the unit. It says "the target unit has +2 to it's Toughness value". Not "Add two to it's toughness" or "it gains 2 to it's toughness". It sounds like a object. It says "the taget has +2 "or "the target has, add two, to it's toughness". To me it almost sounds like it's a seperate thing attached to the value. Thoughts from you guys?

 

[strewart]

Think about the combination fo flesh to stone and throne of vines as another counter though. You have throne, you cast flesh on a unit, it gets +4 toughness. Opponents turn comes, they dispel throne. Do you still keep the +4 toughness or does that spell all of a sudden reduce to +2? The latest FAQ addressed this and said the boosted version of the spell remains in effect because that is what is cast.

So applying that same logic, I would say if you get a -1 WS spell cast on you, then in the combat phase fail a fear check, your WS is reduced to 1 not 0.

 

[Questioner]

I would say WS1.

Incidentally, over at Carpe Noctem, there is a debate going on this.

http://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Fear-and-Metal

 

[Lord Tsunami]

this seems easy imo.

assume it is the VCs turn, and he casts that spell in the magic phase on a unit of sauruses. they now have WS2. in the combat phase they take a fear test and fail, and their WS is reduced to 1. the -1 has already been applied, so their WS is 1.

now it is your turn and the fear has passes (after the VCs combat phase) but the -1 WS remains. your sauruses have WS2. you take a new fear test and fail again (you suck! ) and by the same logic, your WS is reduced to 1. the -1 has already been applied.

mathematically it would look like:

WS = (WSoriginal-1)^0 = 1

not WS = (WSoriginal^0) - 1 = 0

the "-1" is applied first

 

[Pyre]

Yeah there's a HUGE thread about this on Carpe Noctem.

Well first off I think you have to separate out he spells that set the WS at 1 and the ones that give -1 WS. It sounds like a technicality but follow me for a second.

Misasma reduces your WS by 1d3, so for example if cast on Temple Guard and the d3 roll is 2 then the TG are now WS 2. If they later fail a fear test then they're WS 1. There's no conflict because Miasma has already done its thing, specifically its already changed the target WS. The fear roll changes it again later, but the two neither conflict nor add to one another.

Transformation of Lead, which is what the argument is all about, is worded differently. It says you suffer a -1 to you WS until the caster's next magic phase, and there's the rub. So if a unit fails a fear test before the spell expires then does the -1 still apply? I've always thought yes, because of the statement in the spell that says it effects until the caster's next magic phase. When the unit is dropped to WS1 that -1 is still there, just like if someone were to cast Speed of Light on the unit it would technically become WS9 instead of 10.

Working any other way leads to some weird rule contortions when you start applying that precedence elsewhere, like Toughness buffs and hexes.


Pyre

 

[BostonKaiser]

@ Pyre: Miasma is "until start of next magic phase" as well.

 

[Lord Tsunami]

exactly... so it is applied when you cast it, and then it stays applied till the next magic phase. dont really see any reasonable argument for it being "re applied" after WS has been reduced by fear...

 

[Lord Cedric]

Doesn't the BRB say that the last "effect" is what stands? Meaning this: The Fear check is the last affected thing on the unit coming after the spell.

The definition of what Fear is says that your WS is reduced TO 1. Not reduced BY 1. So I read it (and so does my club and local hobby store) that no matter what your WS is at the time, if you fail your Fear test it will become a 1. This makes perfect sense to me. If GW wanted a modified reduction number, then it would have read stated to reduce WS BY -X. Even if you already had a WS of 0, it would still become a 1 as long as the Fear test was the last effect.

The order of effect is what determines the outcome. And effects only stack if they 1) say so and 2) if they are like effects.

Having a stat reduced BY a # is not the same as changing a stat TO a #. The only thing in common is the stat, not the method.

So, for example #1. If you have a WS of 4 and your opponents spell gives you a -1 modifier then you have WS 3 for a round. On your next turn, that same unit fails its Fear test. Their WS is then reduced to 1.

Example #2. If your unit has a normal WS 4 and you fail a Fear test, your WS is reduced to 1. Your opponent has some magical item/ability to reduce your WS by -1 which takes place AFTER the Fear test, then your WS become 0.

- Lord Cedric