As I was looking at the army fluff in the new Warhammer Rulebook, I stumbled across this little passage. It made me quite angry really, don't know why, it's just a game. "When the Old Ones came to the world, they first created the Slann and the Lizardmen." Correct. "The next race they raised up were the Elves... Confident in their own superiority, the High Elves consider themselves to be the rightful inheritors of the world, now that the Old Ones are no more." What, not the Lizardmen - the older and more powerful race? "Of all the races introduced to the world, the Elves had the greatest affinity for the primal energy known as Magic." Even greater than that of the fat old toads that we call the Slann? Doubt it. "The thousands of years since Ulthuan was created have not been kind to the Elves. The first catastrophe to strike them was the collapse of the vast portals built by the Old Ones. As the gates collapsed, the Old Ones vanished - none knew why or where they went - and the world was inundated by magical energy and the raw stuff of Chaos. Unnatural creatures sprang into existance as if from nowhere, and the children of the Old Ones were suddenly beset on all sides by monstrous fiends and daemonic entities." Fair Enough. "It was the Elves that rose to this almighty challenge. As the tide of Chaos crashed upon the shores of Ulthuan, and the other inhabitants of the Warhammer World cowered in what makeshift shelters they could find, the Elves stood alone." Ok... "Led by the first and mightiest of the Pheonix Kings, the Elves were able to first halt and then turn back the original incursion of Chaos." ...Without any help whatsoever from the Lizardmen? Granted, the Elves were the race that made the final sacrifice to stop the Daemons, but surely we should get some recognition in this story?
Completely agree, the part that annoys me the most is the fact that this is not the only place where it says that the elves are the most magically gifted race in the Warhammer World... I guess the idea of a fat and bloated toad being the most powerful mages didn't quite appeal as much as a graceful elf.
I agree with all of this, I've always thought that elves were a really uncreative idea. "Like humans, but smarter, and faster. And they do magic better. And they can shoot better. And live longer. And they look more beautiful." It just seems too easy make a race thats better at everything. As a contrast, Lizardmen and pretty creative. Strong, fast, tough, but single-minded and stubborn to the point of insanity.
So I haven't actually seen where that passage is, but I assume it is in a HE section or written to be from an elven point of view? Really, it reflects the arrogance of the elves perfectly. In their version of history, yes, it was them who singlehandedly saved the world, acted like the masters of magic and taught it to the Empire colleges, and defended the daemon portals. The elves are an arrogant race. I'm not sure how much the LM version of things mentions the elven involvement, but you can bet they glorified the LM part and downplayed the elven part, even if they didn't so arrogantly claim it was all done by them. The writer of history really decides how to write it. As to who is more powerful magic users out of the Slann and HE's (Teclis?) it is a debate that has raged many many times. It is possible that the meditations of the Slann allow them to achieve a greater understanding of magic and a greater raw power, but the Elves are more active and thus are able to shape and apply it to the world more. I personally see the Slann as more powerful, but I think it depends on who you ask. Interesting to look at it from both a HE and LM player perspective.
I have played as the high elves. Those lines in the rule book are taken directly from the High elf book so they may not have kown about the lizardmen. With the Elves considering themselves as "the rightful inheritors of the world" they were the first ones to obatin a victory against the chaos wave. "the Elves stood alone." This is because the lizardmen fled into there temple cities fearing the destuction of what the old ones left them.
Depends what you mean in a victory against the Chaos wave? Overall, yes, however the LIzardmen were able to defend quite a few Temple Cities. And to you saying that the Lizardmen fled to the temple cities, they didn't, they merely assumed the most easily defendable position against a horde which would be completely impossible to defeat out in the open. And the Slann would only have had a limited time to gather the army, so wouldn't have time to march against Chaos, and Chaos are hardly going to wait for anyone are they?
The lizardmen tales mention that the Slann helped them in the syphoning, and some of their souls are likewise trapped in the vortex. They do give full credit to the elves though for coming up with the plan, and having the guts to go through with it.
I agree with strewart in that the arrogance of the elves is what causes their version of the story to be all about them. However on the subject of who is the most powerfull magic users I have to mention that the slann were not originally created on the world. The oldest and most powerfull were brought by the old ones from another world and then duplicated. Therefor "Of all the races introduced to the world, the Elves had the greatest affinity for the primal energy known as Magic." I would lay the focus on the word introduced there. I would also like to point out that even though teclis might be the most powerfull mage that yet live (not even sure about that) he do not have anywhere near the power of the first-generatiion slanns.
Exactly! The slann as a race were brought to the world but more were made once they arrived, therefore the elves are the most magically adept creation of this world (alos, by the way, taught by the slann) When chaos erruptud the lizardmen deffinatly played a huge part, In the book it says that many slann immidiately gave up their souls to try and close down the portals. The lizardmen fought more or less a secret war on other continents that the high elves hence i doubt the elves even knew the were ther having long forgotten how they learned magic from lizzies. Likewise the elves were oblivious to the vast aid the slann, via the geomantic web, had given by channeling power into the vortex of magic. More or less the lizardmen at this time were behind the scenes, but still a deciding factor in the war. They secretly nutured the fledgling races they nursed and did their own part. Then thanklessly vanished from common history.
Ha we showed them later though. A Lizardman army from Itza marches south across the Culchan planes. A bridge of magical energy is summoned and the army crosses to the island on which stands the Citadel of Dusk. The High elves fear a siege, until a fleet of Dark elf Corsairs attacks from the sea. It was only with the aid of the Lizardmen that the Corsairs are repulsed. See proof that not only do the elves know of us but we fight better than them too...grumble,grumble,grumble.
If the lizardmen were the first race then why are the high elves getting their own lore and the slann are not (high elves dont deserve capital letters in their name)
I agreee, they should get their own lore, somebody posted a fan lore in the general lizardmen section I think. Here it is http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/the-lore-of-water.5564/ I hate it that the high elves are noted as the hero's of the great catyclysm, who fought the demons first? Lizardmen! We barely get any credit for that o.o
do note that in biology, when you bring a species over from another continent it is also called "introducing" a species. so I'm pretty sure your hypothesis doesn't go up too well. Further more if we look at the biology of Lustria one might be inclined to say that the elves didn't go into lustria deep enough to get a propper understanding of the magical potential of the Slann in general. sure they've been trained by one or two slann, but the majority seems to have been hidden all along. however, it could be noted that the author of the High Elf armybook and Lizardmen armybook didn't quite communicate at all in subject to "who's the most awesome at magic"... as for my vote; I choose slann. if they don't like a mountain in their garden, they move it, (thus destroying several dwarf city's in the process) I've yet to see the elves make such a claim as that they changed the face of the entire planet. That said; the High elves do (possibly) have numbers on their side when it comes to magic-users...
My guess as to why slaan don't have their own lore is this. they are the masters of the lores of magic created by the old ones. i.e the 8 main lores, and therefore have no need to have their own. bear in mind the high magic, skaven magic, ogre gut magic and so on were created by the respective races experimenting with and moulding the winds to suit there own needs. In a way its desecrating what the old ones created. taking that point of veiw the slaan would not create their own lore and defile the lores and hence stay true the old ones plans for the world. thats how i see it anyway. Oh and two more things. slaan not the most powerful, teclis. two examples for you. 1) Lord Kroak wiped out an entire daemon army after he was killed with his pure spirit. 2) Lord Mazdamundi, in a foul mood, essentially did the same by making an entire chaos army fall to their deaths by opening up the very ground of the world. The day someone shows me evidence of a "historic eldar" mage doing better. then come see me and i might listern. Lest we forget the only reason elves live today is because the old ones and hence being the children of the old ones, the lizardmen ALLOWED them to grow. Pointy ears, know your place. Yours Aye Mixer
If you want a good, less-biased story of the Great Cataclysm, read the Daemons of Chaos book. It actually gives ALOT more details on the Lizardmen part of the battle. The Lizardmen played a massive role in the fight, slaughtering the first few waves of Chaos while watching the Chaos Gods take form. Not to mention the Slann managed to hold off Kairos Fateweaver (Tzeentch's super daemon), and the most powerful of the daemonic forces long enough to protect the ritual. Daemons give excellent credit and details of how the Dwarves, High Elves, and Lizardmen fought them back.
As I play both High Elves and Lizardmen I'm going to put both sides across. the high elf book only really talks about the battle that occured with Aenarion and so they probably didn't even know about the lizardmens fight v the chaos forces. For magic it is quite tough, Teclis was able to turn an entire slaanesh host to dust from uttering a word so he could be argued as one of the best BUT I do think some of the older Slann are more powerful. Going to wait for the hate now
Ask and you shall recieve. Yes Teclis is one of the greatest mages ever to have lived. But the slaan forged the world itself as the old ones proclaimed. As said before: 1: Kroak did a similar thing to teclis, except he did once he'd been ripped limb from limb, thats one very annoyed ghost! 2: mazdamundi sent an entire chaos army to its doom simply by thinking it. Rule number 1 about slaan: Don't piss em off! Yours Aye Mixer
Well its abvious that lizardmen gave more battles against daemons, but the fact that Elves gave the last strike makes them believe that they won that war alone!
the book only has like half a page passage on the event so it is probably more to fit it all in then anything else, it is after all the High Elf book therefore there not going to really mention other races much. And I didn say the older slann are more powerful then Teclis
The High Elves probably only mention their role because they didn't realise that the Slann were also battling them. Their isolation and their final blow led them to believe that they won the war alone. Also, as another point, did High Elves even know that Lizardmen existed back then?