8th Ed. How I think saurus cold one riders should be used.

[Blackthorne]

A bonus, with coldones, it doesn't matter much if you get the charge or don't. You're going second anyway and you aren't counting on the charge for bonus str.

Nice spin! That's like saying "Don't worry about being forced to pursue, you're going to lose combat anyway".
IMO, the correct fix for lizardmen coldones would have been to remove stupidity, not to gain an attack.
Ld8, cold blooded and stupid has a ~50% chance of failing 1 or more tests per game. For me, that's a deal breaker as a flanking unit.

The problem with S4 is two fold. First, you don't wound as often. Second, even skinks, skeletons and clan rats get an armor save against your strength 4 attacks. Finally, since we lost the magic standard, you cannot throw armor piercing on the unit. That delegates the Cold Ones to killing low toughness poor armor opponents; which is all that our core already does.

I guess that's the problem with Cold One Riders. If you are already forced to spend 25% of your army on units that effectively kill low toughness low armor opponents, why would you want to blow your special points on doing more of the same?

-Matt

No, that's not spin, that's pointing out a very valid strength of CoR over other types of cav. Most cav units do their thing on the turn they charge (and only if they get the charge) and then have nothing to do for any further rounds. CoR are more versatile in that they can take charges and grind it out and still hit at the same level. There are so many times when one whole flank is held up by a cav standoff where both armies are vying for the charge. Obviously, taking the charge on the nose isn't the best, but for us it only means we have to deal with stronger attacks coming our way rather than that AND drastically reducing the effectiveness of our own attacks.

And your second point about saying CoR are redundant because of core saurus is silly. That's like saying all screwdrivers serve the same purpose so having one large, bulky one will work all the time. No, sometimes you need that small screwdriver, even though they both loosen screws. My point is that there is a BIG difference between having s4 attacks on a large block of infantry and having it on a small-frontage, highly mobile, much more durable platform. There are innumerable situations where a CoR unit could get in to deliver those attacks where a saurs block can't. And since, as you mention, and I agree, they have specific targets that they are good against, having a small, mobile unit means you can actually get those matchups instead of plodding along at an infantry pace and fighting whatever you can reach.

 

[Drmooreflava]

A bonus, with coldones, it doesn't matter much if you get the charge or don't. You're going second anyway and you aren't counting on the charge for bonus str.

Nice spin! That's like saying "Don't worry about being forced to pursue, you're going to lose combat anyway".
IMO, the correct fix for lizardmen coldones would have been to remove stupidity, not to gain an attack.
Ld8, cold blooded and stupid has a ~50% chance of failing 1 or more tests per game. For me, that's a deal breaker as a flanking unit.

The problem with S4 is two fold. First, you don't wound as often. Second, even skinks, skeletons and clan rats get an armor save against your strength 4 attacks. Finally, since we lost the magic standard, you cannot throw armor piercing on the unit. That delegates the Cold Ones to killing low toughness poor armor opponents; which is all that our core already does.

I guess that's the problem with Cold One Riders. If you are already forced to spend 25% of your army on units that effectively kill low toughness low armor opponents, why would you want to blow your special points on doing more of the same?

-Matt

Ok that stupidy stat you just tossed out is only valid if you aren't in combat an entire game... So in a reasonable battle, your cold ones will be in combat for two full turns of the 6 turns you play. Shit, 90% of my battles are over before turn 6 anyway. Passing four stupidity tests isn't that big of a deal and that is IF your cold ones survive long enough to take those tests in the first place. I'd say there are really only 2 critical stupidity tests for cold ones, turn 2 and turn 3.

As I've said before, cold ones value over our core is their m7 and swiftstride. The ability to get into combat fast, to tie up or clear out opposing units with a mismatch.

Cold ones are best used as a counter measure to a certain kind of enemy unit. Tarpits. And to do it without applying your saurus core so that they are available to deal with the meat of the enemy forces.

Now, I'm not arguing that cold ones are awesome and are a staple.. I'm saying that they are PICK-ABLE, and are optimized by using them in the ways I have stated earlier.

 

[GCPD]

I'm going to rise to the challenge, and in addition to using Ripperdactyls, I'm also going to start 6 Cold One Riders. Watch this space.

 

[n810]

Ld8, cold blooded and stupid has a ~50% chance of failing 1 or more tests per game

NOT EVEN CLOSE:
89.4% CHANCE OF PASSING (per roll)

PS. you only have to roll if you aren't in combat, say you are in combat by turn 3, then it's only a ~30% fail per game, or probable only once every 3 games.

 

[hardyworld]

Ld8, cold blooded and stupid has a ~50% chance of failing 1 or more tests per game

NOT EVEN CLOSE:
89.4% CHANCE OF PASSING (per roll)

Actually, he's correct (and so are you). Since you test for stupidity in the movement phase, charging on the 3rd turn is conditional that you already passed your stupidity roll. You would only not test if you are fleeing or still in combat from previous turns (and not destroyed) which is an unlikely scenario for a cavalry unit (slightly more common for infantry units). Assuming 6 stupidity rolls per game (which is only slightly above average if they survive the whole game) and no BSB granted re-rolls, your chances are:
50.9% chance to not be stupid during the 6 turns
36.4% chance to be stupid once during the 6 turns
10.8% chance to be stupid twice during the 6 turns
1.72% chance to be stupid thrice during the 6 turns
0.15% chance to be stupid four times during the 6 turns
0.000073% chance to be stupid five times during the 6 turns
0.0000015% chance to be stupid six times during the 6 turns

 

[n810]

Oh I just realized, there is a Very good chance you are going to be near your BSB on the first turn.
So it's a 98.9% chance of passing on the first turn. (likely)
assuming this and that you get into combat for 3 turns,
it's a 75% chance of not being stupid, for that game.

 

[Reddogfish]

Even if there is a 50% chance of you failing stupidity ONCE in an entire game... then whatever you do... dont try OnG... lol...

 

[Walgis]

Well i used them with old book and wss quite happy ( ofcourse the power came from light lore). Now theyre cheaper and have one more atack seems great. When you compare them to other cavs they seem to be ~the same but have stupidity so the price doesnt make sence because everything with stupidity is actualy very cheap just look at trolls.
But all in all i will try them in units of 5-7 to see how they work.

BUT, when you look at mc other races have you just want to put them in a shelf. That makes me sad that we didnt get any nice mc. I dont count rippers as actual mc.

 

[Drmooreflava]

Every book that comes out that doesn't get new MC has a few people QQing right away. Not saying you are, but this forum had a group of people who assumed we were getting carnosaur riders.. I tried to talk sense into them but they had thier hopes up. If every new army book got MC, there would be nothing to look forward to in 9th ed XD

 

[Smexygor]

They are one hand of glory/wyssans away from doing a great job. And realistically, I would never run them in a small game, thus never without a slann, and thus either if not both of those spells available. Slann is 90% of my games bsb and thus, I get good use out of them.

Context: they work for what I want, and they may or may not for you. I tend to swing wide and clear the side or hit from the side. Single row, throw a vet or old blood in and wreak havoc.

 

[lizardmek]

I've use them in 5-6 Games so far just bare bones hand weapons keeping them cheap 5Coldones and once with a muse

So far all game were at least 5 turns long and in all but 1game they was in combat turn one turn 1
Some times in combat in turn one because of vanguard (either because they vanguardes or I vanguarded them with tetto'eko's D3vanguard )

In all games they have only failed stupidity tests once

In smaller points games they IMO get stronger as there usually smaller units

And for just 75ss for 20attacks 10with PF all at strength 4 with toughness 4 and 2+As they are a bargain just throw them on a flank they will chew though any and all chaff you can throw at them and live to kill another day

One game they charged a block of 60skaven slaves ground thought them after 4 turn of combat broke them for no loses then charged lightning cannon killed that and last turn charged a bell unit
In that game they made they point cost back a more

Only I one game did they get completely destroyed

I love using them and will always find the points to squeeze them in

In all game there was no slann ...so far I haven't been able to fit one in with all the new toys ..but to tell
Tell the truth I haven't missed the slann its been refreshing



To sum up the for there cost and damage potential they get my vote

 

[Caneghem]

This sounds like the niche that these guys fill, just mopping things up and grinding away at larger units. I think people are quick to dismiss them (myself included) because there's the pre-conceived notion that all cavalry need to work the same way, but I think our cav fill a different role. I think I may start running the barebones unit of 5 with musician.

 

[rothgar13]

I agree - 5 with a Musician doesn't set you back much points-wise, and they spit out an impressive volume of S4 attacks (which, as most things in this army, are one Wildform away from really getting beefy).

 

[Spiney Norman]

I agree - 5 with a Musician doesn't set you back much points-wise, and they spit out an impressive volume of S4 attacks (which, as most things in this army, are one Wildform away from really getting beefy).

Personally I would always take a banner as well, there are precious few units in our book that can take banners and I always struggle to put out enou of them to remain competitive in blood and glory.

 

[Smexygor]

My Slann is my breakpoint in B&G. The rest of the banners I use doesn't add up to my bsb general temple guard banner break points. If anything, it makes it easy as I can focus on their banners and I know where all their units are coming.

 

[Blugunner38]

We are leaving something out with elves they all fight in 3 ranks. I could argue that dragon princes are the best cav in the game. But that's not here nor there. It is really difficult to compare a unit to another unit that, while still is cav they might have a completely different purpose in the army. Most cav units are never ment to go A vs B unit because most cav are ment to use their movement and reachable charge distance to hit a unit in it's flanks that is stuck in with another unit. If you are front charging cold one riders into a big brick of anything you are doing it wrong. So you cannot compare saurus to cold one riders because they don't serve the purpose. I would say that cold one riders are pretty good when used in the right context. They can provide alot of attacks in a smaller front with decent movement and toughness with a good armor save to get to combat. Also I think stupidity is kind of a boon to them because leadership 8 cold blooded means they almost will never fail a stupid check plus stupidity confers immune to psyc.

 

[Lizardmatt]

We are leaving something out with elves they all fight in 3 ranks. I could argue that dragon princes are the best cav in the game. But that's not here nor there. It is really difficult to compare a unit to another unit that, while still is cav they might have a completely different purpose in the army. Most cav units are never ment to go A vs B unit because most cav are ment to use their movement and reachable charge distance to hit a unit in it's flanks that is stuck in with another unit. If you are front charging cold one riders into a big brick of anything you are doing it wrong. So you cannot compare saurus to cold one riders because they don't serve the purpose. I would say that cold one riders are pretty good when used in the right context. They can provide alot of attacks in a smaller front with decent movement and toughness with a good armor save to get to combat. Also I think stupidity is kind of a boon to them because leadership 8 cold blooded means they almost will never fail a stupid check plus stupidity confers immune to psyc.

Huh?
Stupid is good because you won't fail the LD8 stupid check, and you won't have to take the Ld8 panic test?
You're trading not taking one type of leadership test, in exchange for taking a different type every round.
In no world is stupid good.
The big downfall is that to make the flank charge work, you're going to be taking stupidity tests outside of the generals leadership, most likely outside of the BSB's range, and you're likely to be forced to pursue after the smaller crap flank units your opponent throws in your path.
The best use of saurus cav is a look out for the cowboys.

-Matt

 

[Blugunner38]

My thought on the stupidity thing is I would rather fail a stupid check and sit for a turn then fail a fear check to say gouls or a fail a terror check from something that has the reach to get you. Yes it's kind of thing for another but there are lots of things that can modifiy psyc checks hell VC can take a 25 point banner that basically cancels cold blooded for fear checks. Having stupidity is not ideal but it's how the rules for them are written. Are cold one riders perfect of course not. Would I take them in a competative list prolly not. In a beer and pretzels game I take um. I like the models. I think they have a place.