How to glue kroq-gar! [help]

[casper slok]

As the title says, how to glue the mother $%@!.
seriously, Ive bought the scar general kroq-gar on his caronosaurus (full metal).
I've painted the carono so far so good and tried to glue it together...
I knew it would be a hard task to do and since my stegadon, chaos chariot and entire codl one cavalarie (the metal ones) are already broken or partly broken I wasn't hoping a perfectly strong model on my first try but even Bison kit won't work! I've tried almost everything:
-glue
-super glue
-GW metal glue
-metal glue from a hardstore
-kit!
-metal glue and spit on the other site
-green stuff!
-kit and super glue

for the record my general is still in parts and has lost some layers of paint duo the glue.

Any suggestion, please post, otherwise I'll simply go to the GW in Amsterdam and tell them they should give the F$!@ a try.

Thanks,

 

[strewart]

Firstly, I will move this from tactics to Painting and converting I think.

Secondly, did you clean the model at all before painting? It always pays to give metal and resin models a quick clean with warm, soapy water and rinse them thoroughly to get rid of any mould agent or whatever may still be on them.

Thirdly, you need to make sure the bond between pieces is as flat as possible, or at least has a large amount in contact. GS around the edge (doubles as a gap filler) is a good start. Make sure there is decent metal-metal contact as well as just GS though.

Fourthly, and probably most importantly, pin it! Get a small pinning tool and some paper clips or thin wire, drill some holes in the joints, and pin every piece of the carnosaur. This will strengthen it, help hold it together while the glue is drying, and overall make a much better bond.

Also make sure you have a decent brand of superglue. The cheaper stuff is fairly rubbish, or can be. You also now need to make sure that you scrape or file away all traces of dry glue before trying to glue again, or it won't stick.

Super glue is the most common for metals and should work when you have a little bit of GS and pins in the joins. However, I have heard of some people using 2-part epoxy glue (araldite is one brand I think) which is very strong and if you are having lots of trouble, should work well. It takes longer to dry though, so definitely pin as well and maybe even use a little super glue right at the edges to help hold it while the epoxy in the middle sets.

 

[Wolf]

Seeing as you're from near Amsterdam I assume that they have Patex over there as well I'm from Belgium and use the gel form super glue they have. Combined with doing what Strewart said (especially the pinning) it worked the treat for every large metal model I've assembled.

 

[AllSeeingSkink]

I use Epoxy glues for my metal models. It is more fiddly to use, but its strong as all hell. Araldite is the most common Epoxy glue, but there's a few others available as well (some better than others, I once bought a cheap no-name brand 5 minute epoxy and it didn't work quite as well). Epoxy is a two part thing that cures after you mix it together, so make sure you mix it properly otherwise you'll have uncured parts which will remain sticky. After the epoxy has cured it remains softish (not enough to deform accidently, but where superglue snaps if you hit it hard enough, epoxy will tend to bend instead). It also bonds really well to metals. You'll find in the aerospace industry epoxy is used a lot for bonding metals to composites (they dont usually use it to bond metals to metals because they weld/bolt/rivet instead).

The thing about superglue is that you need REALLY good mating surfaces for things to stick, which is sometimes easier said than done for metal models. On the other hand, Epoxy is capable of filling small gaps (still try and get the surfaces to mate properly, but if there's small gaps epoxy should fill it, where as superglue will just be brittle and crap and snap off).

For big models I still pin them, though I have heard of people who just use Epoxy and nothing else... I haven't tested for myself though because big metal models are expensive and time consuming enough as it is without testing whether or not they break

EDIT: When I say it bonds metals well I mean comparatively, NOTHING bonds metal "well", just some things are better than others I've personally used epoxy adhesives to glue Aluminium mounts to carbon fibre wings on race cars, so I have a bit of faith in it (haven't had a car drive over its own front wing yet ). Use a fast curing Epoxy (typically 3-5 minute work time, 10-20 minute gel time), there's a few available in the form of both thick liquids and pastes. Think about how you have to clamp it beforehand and keep an eye on the time, you dont have to apply it as soon as you mix it, I usually wait for it to get a bit tacky, but make sure you dont wait too long when it starts going off.

EDIT2: Come to think of it, I do have one model I didn't pin, my Zoanthrope I just epoxied and didn't pin. Its huge head and little torso links to the "tail" part at a tiny little join in its midsection. It hasn't fallen apart, but I'm obviously not gonna test it to see how strong it is If you're going to all the effort of pinning though, epoxying the model doesn't add much time on top of that. Most stuff I dont even bother clamping, I just hold it together for a few minutes or rest it up against something that supports it while the glue cures. For really big stuff I might use some alligator clips (with some paper to not damage the model) to hold it together.

The other good thing about epoxy is that you can cut it, especially just before its completely cured, so I usually just put on excess to fill the gaps then trim with a knife the excess while its still soft (or "cheesy" as we describe it when working on the car, lol).

 

[casper slok]

First of all thanks for the quick and helping information (A)

I've read some stuff Ive already tried, such as cleaning and GS combined with glue but I'll assume I've simply used the wrong glue then.
Im about to pin the tail deffiniatly but how about his little claws and Kroq-gar? I mean if I pin Kroq-gar's arms to his body he will drill right trhough him wouldn't it?


PS: thanks for replacing in right topic

 

[strewart]

Yeah some small parts can be hard to pin, but really a pin need only be 1-2mm in length and it makes a massive massive difference to the strength of the bond. I have pinned skink feet and they are tiny, you do need to drill slowly and make sure you don't go through the model but if you use a handheld drill instead of an electric one, it is easy to control. Having said that, I did not pin my Kroq Gar (his head has now broken off sadly) and I don't think I did the claws either, but certainly every other piece I did.

 

[cyanhawk]

The tail needs a pin for sure, it weighs a ton. The other bits don't really need it if you use the right super glue. Cant use common grocery store stuff. I have had good success with galeforce 9 super glue. The games workshop stuff is good also, but expensive.

If you want you can put a pin into the bottom of kroq gar leading into the carnosaur. The saddle should have enough contact to glue but I prefer painting the two seperatly and then just sitting him onto the pin so hes actually a seperate piece. This makes it a little easier to transport the model also.

 

[AllSeeingSkink]

Ok, with my un-ending faith in epoxy I just tried tested my epoxied Zoanthrope. I applied quite a bit of force to the unpinned joint and it didn't break, easily applied enough force to account for the weight of entire carnosaur on a joint that's probably 5mm in diameter. I'm sure if I tried I could break it But I think applying the amount of force I applied was sufficient to prove that its strong stuff, lol I never would have applied that much force to an unpinned superglued joint in my wildest imagination.

If you dont know what I mean, this is the Zoanthrope model, its about 3.5" tall and the head is reasonably big, the join I'm talking about is in the narrow section between the "ribs" and the "tail" section, I applied a force to the model's head and balanced it by applying a force to its base....

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA...99060106041_TyranidZoanthropeMain_873x627.jpg

Of course for a model I care about I'd still pin it, simply because it takes sooooo many hours to paint that the hour or two I spend pinning it is worth the piece of mind.

Honestly I'd never use superglue again though, its really not built for strong bonds on surfaces that dont mate perfectly (FYI, greenstuff is a type of epoxy too, though very different from an adhesive epoxy).