8th Ed. How to handle Elite Infantry?

[skillfull_dan]

So I've read through the new book a few times, and I keep running into one huge problem every time I'm trying to build a list with it.

How can i deal with elite infantry blocks?

My area has a lot of white lions, nurgle warriors with halberds, and phoenix guard, and frankly, I am struggling to think of a way to deal with them. A block of 21 of these are cheap enough they can field two easily in a 2500 point game.

The only valid answer I have to them is salamanders which are now more expensive and shorter ranged, magic which is now weaker, and skink shooting. Double fleeing with ld5 and charge blocking only buy a little time.

Avoiding these units arent really an option, the high elves outshoot me with ballista and archers and force me to take the fight to them, and the warriors field either hellcannons or enough flying monstrosities to make avoiding combat impossible. The players behind these armies are good, so I never assume I get more than one turn of close range shooting

I cant think of any unit in our book that has a way of dealing with block like these, and double fleeing and charge blocking dont work as well with our new skink leadership.

So how do you guys intend to handle elite infantry blocks like this? Do we have any way of handling them outside of magic and salamanders?

 

[rothgar13]

Of the 3 you mention, the only one that would truly worry me would be the Nurgle Halberd Warriors - the High Elves you can overwhelm with numbers by bringing along a big Saurus unit with Spears. Even a 4+ Ward save won't stand up to the attack spam that sort of unit can spit out, particularly if you go Horde and have some Wildform caddies nearby. Alternatively, an Oldblood cowboy with the Dawnstone and the Stubborn hat can take on all the Phoenix Guard in the world on his own (as long as you stuff Mindrazor, that is).

For the Nurgle Warriors... Impact Hits are the way I'd go here. That means double Ancient Stegadon in his face - the side benefit of such a strategy is if he takes a Daemon Prince and/or Chimerae, your charge range is a a big no-go zone for him. No WoC player who's aware of Sharpened Horns is going to send his models in there, and for good reason.

 

[Mr Phat]

I know its easier said than done, but Fiery Convocation seems proper.
Their wardsave wont keep up with the burn each turn, and given that the Slanns "soul of stone" I think its worth going for the miscast to get it through (at the right time of the battle of course).

do note that "Drain Magic" will counter this pretty easy.

 

[GCPD]

You won't find much in the Lizardmen book that, like Nurgle Warriors, White Lions, or even Phoenix Guard, that you can simply push forward and relax. The Lizardman book has always worked best when everything works together, and you need to bare that in mind.

Warriors of Chaos are my specialty.

Ancient Stegadons with D3 impact hits should do well against Monstrous Cavalry, Chimeras, and may even threaten Daemon Princes. Use Walk Between Worlds to get them into position.

Take a Slann with Loremaster High. Cast Unforging on the Daemon Prince until you take off its Dragonbane Gem, then switch to Searing Doom and nuke it. The same trick works against Disc Lords, too. If all else fails, try to get it to charge into an infantry unit. Spend one turn challenging it out, then run a Dawn Stone Scar-Vet in on your next turn. Apply magic buffs. Profit, or simply stalemate it out. Its really worth bringing two Vets against Warriors.

Spam Blasterdons at the Chimera. Swap out for Searing Doom or Burning Gaze and nuke it.

I haven't had too much experience with a Hellcannons. Its a tough nut to crack, for sure, but it does have weaknesses: Leadership and Initiative. Try a Skink Priest with the Feathered Cloak and a Slann who swaps to Spirit Leech, Purple Sun or Pit of Shades. Drop a Doom and Darkness on it and run Terradons around. Take Ironcurse Icon everywhere. f all else fails, Walk Between Worlds something into its face. Like an Ancient Stegadon with D3 impact hits

Nurgle Warriors are an outright PITA, make no mistake. You cannot out fight these sons of bitches with magic. Salamanders still ruin them, but they've lost their march and shoot so its hard to position. The only advice I can offer is to use Skinks to slowly pepper their numbers down to more manageable sizes, redirect them into favourable combats, and apply augments or hexes to any combat you are in with them. Chuck spare dice at magic missiles against them. Grab two units of 5 Chameleon Skinks and shadow each block every step of the way. Do what you have to do to even the odds, and then apply overwhelming force to break them through combat resolution.

For instance, in a recent game my opponent had 18 of these guys marching to me. They killed one unit of Skink Skirmishers, broke a second unit of Skink Skirmishers from combat, and then fled a charge from 6 Cavalry and an Ancient Stegadon, which ran them down. By that point they had been reduced to 8 or 9 models and weren't much of a threat. You really have to employ guerrilla warfare against them to chip away with a wound here, a wound there, and stall. The latter part is actually fairly easy to accomplish against a Warriors army, as you can't redirect all the flying stuff anyway

I only saw Phoenix Guard a little in the previous book - mostly it was White Lions and Swordmasters - but they haven't changed much. They are a pain to kill, but without buffs not all that killy. The key is to beat them through combat resolution. Slam a big block of Saurus in the front to tough it out and something like a Stegadon, Basiladon, Cavalry or even Ripperdactyls in the flank. White Lions no longer get true ASF, so try to use that to your advantage: combine Blasterdons with Hand of Glory to get I6 Temple Guard, Ripperdactyls or Saurus Cavalry and cut them down first. Salamanders aren't actually that good against them any more as the S4 doesn't drop their armour save by enough. Steadfast also means you can't shatter them with CR, either. Magic really is looking like our best option, here; fortunately, the bound spell on the Ancient Stegadon, which otherwise isn't very good, does to quite well against T3 infantry. You might also have some success with the Arc of Sotek d6 S2 attack. Stall the Lions up with some 10 Skink blocks, with Javelins so they keep cutting numbers down through Stand and Shoot, and get 6++ parrys against those S6 attacks, and keep the Arc lurking nearby.

 

[Stonecutter]

Lizzies have always had problems dealing with elite infantry on their own due to lower WS & I across the board. To a certain degree, I think there are two different problems when addressing either HE or WoC. HE are glass hammers supported by good shooting whereas WoC are tough as nails hammers that are have limited shooting support. In the case of both armies, straight up combat is auto-lose for lizzies and thus the focus must be on attrition and setting the right conditions for victory. Since I have the same problem myself, here are my first thoughts on how to tackle these problems (all based on a standard 2400 point list).

High Elves:

Saurus and TG can eventually grind down phoenix guard in a war of attrition since PG are only S4 so I don't think they are as much of a problem as the other elites. The white lions/SM are different however since they will slaughter saurus & TG almost as quickly as skinks. This means relying more than ever on sallies (2 units of 2 or possibly even 3) to win the war of attrition as follows:

1) Screen & Protect - meat shield skinks and terrain must be used to protect sallies while they get into a flanking position. This must be balanced with the need to keep sallies within the LD bubble to prevent panic and to allow for magic buffs.

2) Threaten the shooters - skirmish skinks and fliers (particularly rippers) can shred HE shooters or at least force them to focus their efforts somewhere other than on sallies. For this role, I think Javelin skinks will be superior due to the higher number of hits, elf T3 and superior armour save. March and shoot to point blank range and then stand and shoot again if the archers charge. Rippers hitting a "toad rage" unit from the FLANK will decimate them. With T3 & 4+ AS, they will likely suffer 1 wound at most and a unit of 3 will inflict 9-10 wounds on average. Throw in a failed elf fear check and/or a buff from wyssan's or hand of glory (HoG) and the archers will rapidly be wiped out. Even a frontal attack might be worth the risk if it allows a pile of KB attacks to be directed at a HE wizard.

3) Magic - Initially, magic should be used to take out vulnerable shooters, again with the aim of protecting sallies. Elite infantry can be targeted in priority if they are vulnerable to S4 hits (i.e. no BoWD). Walk between worlds can also get the sallies into a perfect shooting position. Arcane unforging can be used to nerf the BoWD by targeting the unit standard bearer (while the model will likely pass the 2+ ward, the banner's magic will be gone on a 2+ as well!!). Buying time with deflectors will permit more magic and shooting to help level the playing field. With any luck, a casting of fiery convocation on an elite unit will severely curtail their enthusiasm for combat.

4) Combat - Just prior to contact, HoG on the saurus/TG for WS should help reduce the number of hits while Wyssans's on friendly units or curse of anraheir will make them think twice about charging (if your priest is lucky enough to roll it). On this note, I think it would be worthwhile to exchange soul quench or tempest early on for wyssans so that multiple attempts can be made when it is really required.

WoC:

Warriors are slightly slower and have fewer shooting options than HE. Unfortunately, the skullcrushers are brutal in combat and can really put the boots to saurus & TG in short order. Since there are fewer shooters to worry about and there is relatively little in the army that can touch them (skinks or fliers vs hellcannon (HC) is not a bet anyone should want to make!), a different mix of troops is likely required.

1) Going after the HC - Skrox or krox can be used to go after the HC although the unit will have to be big enough to take some casualties and still win combat. These are fast enough to hit the HC by turn 3, thus limiting the potential damage of S5 template hits.

2) Sallies - again very useful and a similar approach is needed to both protect them using cover and movement. Keep in mind that HoG can increase their movement up to 9" so a 18" march could see them in excellent position to blast away next turn while walk between worlds will do the same this turn.

3) Road block SV or OB - Cowboy with dawnstone or OB cowboy with dawnstone, steggie helm & GW can hold up a unit of nurgle warriors if kept within range of the slaan. This will provide time to get into a flanking position with TG/saurus so that combat starts in lizzie favour and WoC attacks are minimized. The cowboy can also hold up the skullcrushers if necessary.

4) AP banner - a must for the TG to punch through WoC armour.

5) Magic - again, wyssans will be very useful so dumping the magic missile early will help. Fiery convocation won't wipe out the WoC but it will kill ~25% of the models in the unit each and every turn so it certainly cannot be ignored. HoG again should be focussed on WS to even the score (or perhaps even beat it with TG), thus resulting in a lower casting value and more dice for multiple wyssan's.

6) Steggie - an ancient would definitely make a nice crunch if tossed in on the corner of combat and/or flank so it is just touching enough to get in its attacks while only suffering 1-2 models worth back. Sharpned horns and a boost from wyssans (rolled on a 9+ thanks to the lore attribute) would also make steggie great for counter charging skullcrushers. As always, the main problem will be keeping steggie alive long enough to exploit the charge as he is one HC shot away from being dropped.

Well, that's about it for the moment. I'll be playing a few games against HE and WoC in the next couple weeks so we'll see if my theory hammer actually works!

 

[GCPD]

I just want to add that I disagree that the Razor Standard is necessary for the Temple Guard. You're already reducing their save to 6+ down from the normal 4+. Is it really worth reducing it further for 45 points? I'm not so sure.

18 Temple Guard attacks (6x4 formation; the minimum frontage that you want) inflict 6 hits and 4 wounds.
Without the standard, their wounds round to 3 casualties (to the nearest significant figure).
With the standard, the 4 casualties go straight through.

But you're buffing the Guard with Hand of Glory, right?
So those 18 attacks deal 9 hits (assuming an average roll takes them to WS6) and 6 wounds. With the Standard, they save 1 in 6 and lose 5 models. Without it, they lose 6.

But you're running those bad boys in a horde with Hand of Glory, aren't you?
That's 16 attacks from the first rank, 8 from the second and 8 from the third for 32 total. They hit 16 times and wound about 10 times, give or take.
With the Standard, those 10 or so die straight off.
Without the Standard, they save 1-2, and lose 8 or 9.

So really, you're investing 45 points in an item which is going to kill maybe one or two additional Chaos Warriors. Its really not that much to swing a combat which you will either win anyway and likely break through super CR and Steadfast denial from ranks (As in the 3rd example); or you'll be the one losing the combat (most likely examples 1 and 2).

Against hand weapon and shield Warriors I'd still argue against it, as their damage ouput is significantly reduced. Yes you won't kill many; but neither will he. Victory will come to whoever generates more static combat resolution. The 45 points spent on more Temple Guard will do that. Or the War Banner.

It might be worthwhile against Skullcrushers and Knights; but I'd argue that those units are pumping out so much damage that your Temple Guard are in trouble whatever Banner they have.

If you really want to give them a Banner, go with Banner of the Eternal Flame and laugh at those silly Chimeras, and bring a couple more Temple bros.

Edit: Also, why bother with the Razor Standard when you can get a Skink Priest and just 6 dice Wildform for the same armour penatly?

 

[Rettile]

saurus warriors with spear and wildform are pretty powerful. Kill some enemies with salamanders and hit the engaged unit with a hammer (steg, kroxi...)

 

[Reddogfish]

The reason why nurgle warriors are tough is because of the -1 to hit isnt it?

I dont have the WoC current book so I am just going off what I expect from other posts...

If this is the case then consider saurus warriors with spears and swarms into the flank.

reduce the number of attacks you need to wound with in order to up your chances to reduce the unit down to combat ineffectiveness...

If he is only taking units of 18 warriors then once they are below 12... they will become significantly more ineffective for each wound he takes.

Also in a flank while he will target swarms to get easier combat res he will only get 6 attacks each phase at most until he hits 12 models... then only 4 attacks.

You should easily do 6 wounds in a round of combat with posion saurus attacks with horde or maximixing your width so even just at 8 wide with no horde you will have 33 poisoned attacks with each 6 getting a free attack adding an extra possible 5 attacks on average.

with a wildform on the saurus you can expect approx 10 saves on 6+

That is the first round and while you may take more damage before hand... you will certainly take less and deal more relatively in the subsequent rounds.

while you will spend more on these units to achieve this outcome your saurus should still be combat effective after this combat and capable of possibly achieving a similar outcome against further inf blocks. while his unit will eventually be wiped out for all imp VP.

 

[rothgar13]

The problem you'll have with that strategy is the rest of his army - the current version of WoC hits you very hard and very fast (save for the foot troops, who typically come into play as the coup de grace), so good luck keeping your Swarms alive, let alone getting them into flanking position. HE offers similar difficulties. Put simply, these are foes that Lizardmen isn't really equipped to outmaneuver, hence why I propose outlasting the fragile High Elves and overwhelming the Warriors with initial force.

Also, most of a Chaos Warrior unit's juice comes from the front rank - the second rank helps, but most of the damage is the first 6 guys. They tend to grind quite well, and that's one of the many factors why (-1 to hit, WS5, S5, I5, 4+ saves, the list just goes on and on).

 

[Stonecutter]

@GCPD:

Your point about razor banner vs 3 extra TG does make sense but I guess our local meta is somewhat different and that, along with the winds of magic abandoning me at the worst possible moment, shifts the balance toward having guaranteed AP attacks. The typical WoC list I face has a horde (~30+) of Festus buffed warriors with sword & board. The unit dishes out 40 poisoned attacks per turn that have 3+/5+ saves before they themselves are buffed by any magic. Once Festus is assassinated, the save goes to 3+/6+ and they lose poison. The block is supported by either 2 units of skullcrushers or 1 unit of skullcrushers + HC. On top of that there is generally a nasty lord choice (Nurgle DP) and/or 1+ re-rollable mounted hero/lord. With the AP banner, the wounds against the MC are 50% higher (4+ vs 3+ save) and the characters are also much more likely to fail armour saves - even more so when it is the SV cowboy with G/W laying the beating on them. The MC & character aspects alone make the AP banner much more valuable than 3 extra TG and even against the warriors, it generally yields 1-2 wounds/round. On top of that, the Empire lists have similar builds with piles of 1+ knights (inner circle, reik & chicken varieties) in addition to the 1+ re-rollable hero/lord. Ogre mournfang cavalry (1-2 units with 4-6 each) are a similar problem and again the AP banner makes a very noticeable difference in getting wounds through. In the end, I guess it boils down to what works for you in your own environment but until the masses of high AS troops stop coming at me, I'll stick with the good old reliable, albeit expensive, razor banner.

 

[skillfull_dan]

First off all, thank you guys. I feel like sinde the book came out lustria has been getting angrier lately and less lighthearted and fun. Thank you guys for giving helpful realistic advice, it is refreshing.

Take a Slann with Loremaster High. Cast Unforging on the Daemon Prince until you take off its Dragonbane Gem, then switch to Searing Doom and nuke it. The same trick works against Disc Lords, too

I never considered this, This is a realistic way of putting some wounds on the DP, i love it.

Spam Blasterdons at the Chimera. Swap out for Searing Doom or Burning Gaze and nuke it.

I am on the fence about blasterdons, I am going to have to try them a few times, again, a great idea.

Nurgle Warriors are an outright PITA, make no mistake. You cannot out fight these sons of bitches with magic. Salamanders still ruin them, but they've lost their march and shoot so its hard to position. T

Again, a realistic response, and the same conclusion I've come to. While I would love to slam two stegadons into them every turn it isnt realistic, warriors have too many chariots and too many fliers. Getting charges off that i want is extremely difficult against a well played warriors army.

Generally I avoid the razor standard because I generally dont tailor my lists to my opponent. If I made a list to specifically engage a WoC army I would add it, but the standard is wasted when i fight skaven, HE, DE, etc. Adding more temple guard is useful against everyone while the standard is useful against some.

 

[GCPD]

@GCPD:

Your point about razor banner vs 3 extra TG does make sense but I guess our local meta is somewhat different and that, along with the winds of magic abandoning me at the worst possible moment, shifts the balance toward having guaranteed AP attacks. The typical WoC list I face has a horde (~30+) of Festus buffed warriors with sword & board. The unit dishes out 40 poisoned attacks per turn that have 3+/5+ saves before they themselves are buffed by any magic. Once Festus is assassinated, the save goes to 3+/6+ and they lose poison. The block is supported by either 2 units of skullcrushers or 1 unit of skullcrushers + HC. On top of that there is generally a nasty lord choice (Nurgle DP) and/or 1+ re-rollable mounted hero/lord. With the AP banner, the wounds against the MC are 50% higher (4+ vs 3+ save) and the characters are also much more likely to fail armour saves - even more so when it is the SV cowboy with G/W laying the beating on them. The MC & character aspects alone make the AP banner much more valuable than 3 extra TG and even against the warriors, it generally yields 1-2 wounds/round. On top of that, the Empire lists have similar builds with piles of 1+ knights (inner circle, reik & chicken varieties) in addition to the 1+ re-rollable hero/lord. Ogre mournfang cavalry (1-2 units with 4-6 each) are a similar problem and again the AP banner makes a very noticeable difference in getting wounds through. In the end, I guess it boils down to what works for you in your own environment but until the masses of high AS troops stop coming at me, I'll stick with the good old reliable, albeit expensive, razor banner.

That is quite a different meta to the one I'm used to, but in the absence of finding another gaming group I would definitely take the standard too.

That Warriors list... ugh. That's why we have a gentleman's agreement not to use Special Characters. You are spamming lore of Metal until they switch builds, right?

 

[archangelvk]

About the High Elves, dont think that shooting White Lions or Swordmasters down will solve your problem in close combat that easily just beacuse you outnumber them. The HE players I tend to go up against run 2 frost phoenix each, one for each elite fighting block making whoever they fight -1S. Id rather spend my time trying to skink shoot the phoenix rather than their elite blocks. That Phoenix is amazingly strong for what it costs compared to our monsters.

 

[rothgar13]

Indeed - you may find that your Poisoned shooting is tied up elsewhere because of those bothersome Phoenixes. In that case, just Widlform up your Saurus and receive the charge. You'll have the ranks and Toughness to hold, and the Strength and attack output to kill. The High Elves may win the combat, but the Saurus will win the fight.

 

[Stonecutter]

That is quite a different meta to the one I'm used to, but in the absence of finding another gaming group I would definitely take the standard too.

That Warriors list... ugh. That's why we have a gentleman's agreement not to use Special Characters. You are spamming lore of Metal until they switch builds, right?

We're split in terms of our gentlemen's agreement with the more experienced players following similar restrictions to what you mentioned but newer/intermediate players have harder lists. Experience still tends to win out but you need to be careful as that WoC build can wreck your army in a heartbeat even in the hands of a novice. I stick to an all comers list with high magic and have found spamming wyssan's very effective - the TG wasted the DP last night in one round after getting boosted by wysaan's and hand of glory!