8th Ed. How would you rank the Warhammer armies in terms of technological prowess? (tier list included!)

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Watching the Forge of the Chaos Dwarfs trailer got me thinking of how the various Warhammer armies compare to one another in terms of technological mastery. Technology in this case can include things like weapons & armour development, creation of buildings/infrastructure, war machines, etc.

To keep things simple and fair, only technology which that specific race/army/faction creates should be counted. For instance, the Lizardmen are sitting on some Old Ones tech (which would easily be the most advanced of the Warhammer world), but they can't create it themselves, so we wouldn't consider it as part of their technological prowess. Likewise, the Warriors of Chaos have sophisticated armour and the use of Hellcannons, but these are obtained from the Chaos Dwarfs, so we wouldn't count these towards the WoC technological level (but it would be counted for the Chaos Dwarfs who created it).

I've created a quick tier list with all 16 armies to use as a starting off point to help generate discussion. I'm far from what you would consider a lore master, so feel free to disagree and provide your order and rationale. If the thread takes off, I'd be happy to provide my justification for each selection as well as further breakdown the groups into a complete ranked list.

I've used Bretonnia as my midpoint as I feel they best represent medieval technological development. In the case of races comprised of multiple species, consider the most advanced species of the group. So for Lizardmen you would discount Saurus and consider Skink tech. In the case of Orcs & Goblins, we'd discount the Orcs and focus on the Goblins. Additionally, any tech coming from the gods of a race should be discounted.



Maybe I can even get @Lizards of Renown to briefly abandon his hiatus and chime in. Your fellow Sorcerer-Prophet of Hashut needs you!



Discuss!

 

[Imrahil]

Interesting, I mostly agree with your list.

I wonder why both Lizardmen and Tomb Kings are below the medieval level in your opinion?

Grrr, !mrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I wonder why both Lizardmen and Tomb Kings are below the medieval level in your opinion?

A good question. I had a couple of reasons...

• Utilization of steel - medieval level technology had a significantly greater capacity to process and use iron (and more importantly steel) than we see depicted from the Lizardmen or the Tomb Kings. Bretonnia for instance, whom I'd argue are the closest analogue to the real-world medieval age, have harnessed the power of steel. Steel weapons, steel armour and heavy usage of iron in other applications. The Lizards are mainly using stone and gold, while the TK's advancement in the field of metallurgy typically revolves around gold or bronze. I'm not sure if we've ever seen either of these races demonstrating the ability to process iron and create steel, or even if they can, not to the level and in the quantity as seen in the medieval age. Steel requires significantly more technological advancement to process, shape and utilize than do the softer metals.
• Full Plate Armour - a staple of the later medieval age. Neither the TK nor the Lizardmen have armour anywhere near as advanced as we had in the medieval age. Full plate articulated armour was quite the technological advancement, and far superior to the meager armour created and used by the TK or the LM.
• Real world analogues - Aside from Pyramid building (which is really cool, but countered by castles), the Medieval age was more advanced than the Aztec/Mayan or Egyptian ages. If you were to pit them against each other in a battle featuring equally sized armies on neutral terrain, I'd bet on the Medieval forces prevailing more often than not. I'd attribute this in large part due to their advantage in terms of weapons, armour and equipment.

The TK were a tough one to place. I actually considered shifting them lower because most of their technological achievement (especially in terms of city building) was in the past before they became the undead. As it stands now, most of their force is completely inept in the ways of technology. The ordinary baseline skeleton is pretty mindless. However, I ultimately kept them where they were due to the fact that they are able to maintain a force of quality chariots and still have Necrotects with significant architectural skill.


The Lizardmen are also tough to place because a lot of stuff was left to them via the Old Ones. Additionally, I don't doubt that their technological prowess was far superior under the guidance of the Old Ones (even if we disregard Old Ones tech). I believe that most of their most significant city building was still done during that time period and may not accurately reflect their current technological ability.

I mostly agree with your list.

Which armies would you move around and to where? Share, share, share!!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Scalenex @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Killer Angel

Thoughts?

 

[Scalenex]

I'm not used to E-tier. I will not use it.

I agree with Nightbringer on putting Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs in S-tier but they rely on magic runes to make their technology so powerful. This sets a precedent for merging magic and technology and with this precedent I disagree with a lot of Nightbringers bottom tier choices based on this.

F-Tier

Very bottom of F tier would Beasts of Chaos. They literally make nothing and steal everything, even booze and they love alcohol! In fact, they can occupy F tier by themselves.

D-tier
By their own fluff they are bronze age and early bronze age at that. In the real world, chariots were phased out because developments such as the stirrup mad for better cavalry and advancements in metallurgy allowed for better wagons and carts. They have zero ability to steal or adapt the technology of others. They cannot even recreate the architectural and magi-technology wonders of their own past.

I put Lizardmen on the top of D tier because while they are using stone and bronze, (at least in official fluff) when they put their minds to it Skinks can copy the technology of other races fairly quickly and easily. In my unofficial fluff, the Lizardmen clawed their way into C-tier by aggressively copying the technology of the other powers.

C-Tier

The Ogres don't make much themselves, but they do make their own armor and weapons. They utilized gnoblar looks. The gnoblars are great trapsmiths. They tamed mournfangs which is a form of technology and unlike the umpteen races with horses, they learned to do this themselves. Their cannons and lead belchers are made from salvaged parts, but I pulled them out of D-tier because they are better at salvaging the technology of other races than all the D-tier occupiers.

I put the Vampire Counts in C-tier because they have heavy armor and steel and cavalry but they are a technically province of the Empire. They have no excuse to be as backwards as they are. Either the vampires are stupid or something about the undead condition interferes with their ability to utilize technology correctly.

The Chaos armor and Hell Cannons came from Chaos Dwarves, but the Warriors of Chaos make all the other weapons and gear without needing to barter for it or steal it (though they will opportunistically steal steel from the Empire when the situation calls for it). The Kurgan have advanced horse riding techniques which is a form of technology. So are the long ships they sail around the world and given how solid their navigation is, that's nothing to sneeze at.

Daemons of Chaos don't seem to need to make weapons, they seem to materialize them, but that sort of is a merging of magic and technology. And they have the weird living cannon thing and the cyborg demon thing cribbed from 40K. Because they can meet their basic needs with their magically conjured technology I let them sneak out of F-tier.



I put Orcs and Goblins at the top of C-tier. Their stuff is fairly crude, but it works and they have a lot of it. They don't have to bargain or steal for things, they just do it. They basically able to make working ships, war machines, and weapons out of trash. Night goblin mushrooms are a form of technology as is animal husbandry and they can tame and train all sorts of things the other races couldn't even dream of handling.

B-Tier
I put Brettonians at the bottom of B-tier (tied with Wood Elves). They have okay steel weapons, basic bows and war machines and advanced riding techniques. They just aren't that creative in using it. They managed to get out of C-tier with their pegasi cavalry.


I put Wood Elves at the bottom of B-tier. They have all the technology that the Dark Elves and High Elves do, but they prefer to put a low impact on nature. The fact that they can wield the same level of weapons, armor and cavalry of the other elves says something for their magi-technology to harvest metal without disrupting the trees. I don't know why they can't make repeater bolt throwers though.

A-tier

High Elves and Dark Elves are in A-tier. They have the best weapons and armor not forged by Chaos Dwarves. They have elite cavalry and have tamed mighty monsters and have elaborate formations that work and awesome ships and navigators. The Dark Elves edge out the High Elves because of their ability to sail around on Black Arks.

Empire has the top spot of A-tier. The Steam Tank is unsurpassed in terms of magic-free technology and their artillery is awesome. The Luminark and other wizard wagons show they can magi-technology quite well too. They have sophisticated cavalry, armor, and combined armed tactics.

 

[Killer Angel]

I would rank VC on par with TK.
they start from a more recent tech (empire), but afaik they don't produce anything. the vast majority of their troops are basically raised with whatever they were wearing at the time of death, and that's it. some elite (blod knights) will be able to tend to their armor, instead of letting them rot away. the rest, is just monsters and ghosts.
No guns, no artillery... strong magic is not tech. And if every once in a while they use some living subdued blacksmith to serve the nobility, it's not enough to impact the overall level of the army.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I would certainly agree with Greenskins and Beastmen both being at the bottom tier of teach level. It is true that the Greenskins do build some ramshackle artillery which Beastmen don't bother to do, but on the other hand the Greenskin army also includes subfactions like the Savage Orcs and Forest Goblins which are so backward that even the Beastmen look advanced in comparison. I was going to put Ogres up a tier as well, but that was before I noticed that we're only counting tech they can create. Thus they remain at the bottom with Greenskins and Beastmen.

I would move Daemons up two tiers however, because they have twisted war machines like the Skull Cannon and Soul Grinder which are beyond anything medieval factions would be able to bring to bear, things they have made themselves and have not stolen, which compensate quite a way for the lack of tech anywhere else in the army.

Warriors of Chaos are fine where they are, as the average unmarked Chaos Marauder or Chaos Warrior has an intellectual level probably below that of a Dark Ages Viking (as the Vikings, and other peoples dating even as far back to the Iron Age in other areas of Europe, were able to craft their own chainmail, something the Marauders certainly haven't achieved) and the vast majority of their equipment is made by the Dawi-Zharr. This only makes me respect the Chaos Dwarfs all the more when I realise that they're doing 95% of the work to keep the Chaos alliance running, but Warriors, because they're human, take 95% of the credit in the lore.

Lizardmen and Tomb Kings are fine where they are, though I would consider pushing Vampires down to join them, as while they have Medieval weapons and armour, they have no war machines as the Bretonnians do, plus as others have said they only have access to plate-armour through the Vampiric corruption of human knights, which is technically stealing.

Bretonnia is fine and it makes sense to use them as the control variable as they haven't moved beyond the High Medieval era.

The Empire is also fine where it is, as it combines late Medieval tech-level with more advanced artillery, but by no means are they S-Tier because of how ramshackle their machines are compared to Dwarven quality (both normal and Chaotic).

Skaven, however, I would push down one to join the Empire, because while they are infinitely more inventive than the men of the Empire, and more so than Dwarfs of either flavour, their creations are also infinitely shoddier than any made by those three other factions, on par with those of the Orcs and Goblins for the amount of malfunctioning they experience.

Now the biggest issue I come to is the Elf factions. Both High Elves and Dark Elves field largely Medieval-level technology, with only one real war machine each - their respective flavours of Bolt Thrower, which are much better than anything a human can make but principally limited to troop-killing and certainly not capable of tearing down walls as the weapons of the Dwarf factions, the Empire and the Skaven are, or even the mighty Trebuchets of the Bretonnians. Coupled with the fact that most of their power comes from magic, and strong magic is not the same as good tech, then to be honest I would only consider them one tech level up from Wood Elves for having an artillery piece. Now that I think of it, I wonder if Wood Elves are a bit low down given that all three factions do make better-quality weapons than any human could dream of.

Thus I would consider High Elves and Dark Elves to both be C-Tier and Wood Elves pushed up to D-Tier.

 

[Scalenex]

I forgot the Skaven in my ranking. I'm still not sure where to put them because their technology is so (often literally) very hit or miss.

Originally I could say Clan Skyre has all the tech and the other three don't, but I guess since I broaden my definition of "technology" to include all sorts of things, I would have to give the other clans some more credit, especially Moulder. So I suppose I would put them just below the Empire in A-tier.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Lots of good stuff here @Scalenex , @Killer Angel and @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl !

I put the Vampire Counts in C-tier because they have heavy armor and steel and cavalry but they are a technically province of the Empire. They have no excuse to be as backwards as they are. Either the vampires are stupid or something about the undead condition interferes with their ability to utilize technology correctly.

I would rank VC on par with TK.
they start from a more recent tech (empire), but afaik they don't produce anything. the vast majority of their troops are basically raised with whatever they were wearing at the time of death, and that's it. some elite (blod knights) will be able to tend to their armor, instead of letting them rot away. the rest, is just monsters and ghosts.
No guns, no artillery... strong magic is not tech. And if every once in a while they use some living subdued blacksmith to serve the nobility, it's not enough to impact the overall level of the army.

Lizardmen and Tomb Kings are fine where they are, though I would consider pushing Vampires down to join them, as while they have Medieval weapons and armour, they have no war machines as the Bretonnians do, plus as others have said they only have access to plate-armour through the Vampiric corruption of human knights, which is technically stealing.

You guys make some valid points in regards to the Vampire Counts. I may have been too hasty in my decision to place them alongside the Bretonnians. While they do have armaments of the medieval level, you guys are correct that they aren't the ones creating those pieces (as far as I've read anyways). As such, it shouldn't be counted towards their technological level. Most of their stuff is probably coming from the Empire.

As to @Scalenex 's speculation on why Vampires don't utilize technology, I don't think it is because they are stupid. I would imagine that their knowledge is either on par with humans or greater (due to a longer "lifespan"). They just direct that intelligence into different fields.

As to why they don't create tech, I'd speculate:

• it might be viewed as being beneath them. Many Vampires are of the noble class.
• they are better served focusing their efforts on magic and raising vast armies

As to why they don't utilize tech, I'd speculate:

• their raised minions are expendable, why waste resources on them
• they do in fact collect quality armour and weapons for their own personal use via the Empire
• their raised minions don't have the intellect to use war machines (TK skellies retain a portion of their former selves, which is a key distinction between the two)

I suppose vampires could turn Empire blacksmiths into vampires, but they don't. As they say... could have, would have, should have... didn't!

As such, down they go to join the Lizards and the TK. An argument could be made to place them even lower. Thoughts?

I would move Daemons up two tiers however, because they have twisted war machines like the Skull Cannon and Soul Grinder which are beyond anything medieval factions would be able to bring to bear, things they have made themselves and have not stolen, which compensate quite a way for the lack of tech anywhere else in the army.

Daemons of Chaos don't seem to need to make weapons, they seem to materialize them, but that sort of is a merging of magic and technology. And they have the weird living cannon thing and the cyborg demon thing cribbed from 40K. Because they can meet their basic needs with their magically conjured technology I let them sneak out of F-tier.

The question is, do the daemons create (manifest, materialize) that tech themselves or is it their gods that do so? I'm very poorly versed on the Daemons (one of the few army books missing from my collection), but I'm fairly sure that a bloodletter can't create a Skull Cannon Khorne and a Daemonette can't build a Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh.

That's why I rated them in the lowest tier. They aren't creating any of their tech, but rather it's a manifestation through the power of their gods. The individual daemons themselves have zero technical expertise.

If we were to include all of these things, then the Soul Grinder by itself would single handedly bump them up to A tier at the minimum, and very possibly S tier. That's the kind of technology that only the Chaos Dwarfs could achieve.




I'll dive into more analysis of your responses tomorrow. Until then, keep the discussion going!

 

[Scalenex]

If we were to include all of these things, then the Soul Grinder by itself would single handedly bump them up to A tier at the minimum, and very possibly S tier. That's the kind of technology that only the Chaos Dwarfs could achieve.

I always found the Soul Grinder a poor choice for the army book fluff wise. I assumed they put it in there to get more mileage out of a 40K Daemon model.

I'm still on the fence whether I want the Soul Grinder to exist at all in my fluff universe but on the other hand I have a major daemon villain that was very thoroughly destroyed to the point of not being able to regenerate the normal way and it would thematically appropriate to have it come back as a vengeful Soul Grinder.

@NIGHTBRINGER , if you change your ranking system based on our feedback, you should keep your OP unchanged for posterity and put your new updated list in a reply. In my opinion anyway.

 

[Imrahil]

Which armies would you move around and to where? Share, share, share!!!

The other guys have made some good points.

The only thing I thought of was moving the Skaven to the A-tier for the same reasons as @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl stated.

Skaven are pretty tech loving and use some creative inventions. But none of them are fully reliable.

Grrr, !mrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The Steam Tank is unsurpassed in terms of magic-free technology

Admittedly the Iron Daemon does have a hint of the daemonic, but it is for the most part a magic free mechanical device (unless it is specifically given the Hellbound upgrade). That said, for full disclosure here are some relevant passages from the Tamurkhan book:

"Although a touch of the daemonic enters into all the works of the Chaos Dwarfs, some war machines have hellish devouring entities and daemons of fury and destruction bound to their very frame and bold, creating a truly possessed machine even more blood thirsty than its creators and difficult to destroy." (Hellbound upgrade, page 187)

"The driving power behind these engines comes from coal, which the Chaos Dwarfs mine in great quantities from beneath the Plain of Zharr and then infuse in arcane rites so that it burns hotter and far more constantly than natrually possible. Their furnaces will however willingly devour wood or other base materials if they happen to be the only available source of fuel with a temporarily acceptable loss in performance." (page 176)

As such it is largely magic free. Now is it better than the Steam Tank... rules-wise... NO. The Forge World team made a small but critical error in the Iron Daemon's rules. The Stank reigns supreme in terms of rules. However, fluff wise.. absolutely! From the Empire rule book:

"... a Steam Tank comes from the inspired design of Leonardo of Miragliano. Twelve Steam Tanks were originally built, though only eight now remain, carefully maintained by the Imperial Engineers School."

"However, since Leonardo's disappearance, many of the secrets of their construction have been lost, and the surviving Steam Tanks are becoming increasingly unreliable and inefficient." (Empire army book, page 50)

So fluff-wise the Iron Daemon is far superior:

• more versatile: used for mining, transport system for war machines, a tank and a war machine itself
• more reliable
• can be produced in mass and repaired

Of course, it is a bit of cheat on my part because as mentioned above it is "mostly" magic free. But 99% isn't 100%. If we take your statement absolutely literally, then I'd suggest that the vanilla Dwarfs still have them beat with their two helicopter units. In the real world the helicopter is more sophisticated than the tank as they were successfully created a few decades after the first tank was fielded.

The question is, do Dwarfs infuse any magical runic shenanigans into their Gyro copter/bombers, or are they purely magic free? @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

 

[Scalenex]

I don't agree with your statement that the Iron Daemon is 99% magic free but that's trying to measure the unmeasurable.

Anyway, Marienberg Landships are technically a legal Empire unit.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I don't agree with your statement that the Iron Daemon is 99% magic free but that's trying to measure the unmeasurable.

I did not intend for it to be taken literally, but rather to mean that it is largely mechanical (steam powered) in nature. Nothing in it's lore is that specific as to put such a precise percentage on it. That said, there is very little indicating that they are significantly magical in nature. The first line in the Iron Daemon entry reads as: "The Chaos Dwarfs posses a mastery of steam technology that far surpasses that of the engineers of the Empire." Furthermore, consider that the Iron Daemon was created to haul mining resources, but due to its inherent characteristics, it was soon deployed on the battlefield as well. I wouldn't imagine that mining equipment would be imbued with large amounts of magic. Unless its made Hellbound, it's quite unlike a Hellcannon, which is daemonic in nature.

nyway, Marienberg Landships are technically a legal Empire unit.

That's true, but they are a far cry from the Iron Daemon or Gyro-copters/bombers... or Steam Tanks for that matter. It's own entry reads (look... you've got me reading fluff ):

"The end product looked more like a grotesquely-sized theatrical prop than either a ship of war or a Steam Tank, and was a pretty shameful imitation of either, but somehow it worked - well mostly! The provost-marshal of the Imperial Gunnery School proclaimed them 'The Wonder of the Age' upon announcing their success to the Countess Emmanuelle and the Marienberg legation, and even managed to keep a straight face while doing so."

@NIGHTBRINGER , if you change your ranking system based on our feedback, you should keep your OP unchanged for posterity and put your new updated list in a reply. In my opinion anyway.

Good idea. I'll keep the original tier list in place, otherwise the subsequent discussion might not make sense to anyone reading it in the future. I might edit it to include an updated list behind labelled spoiler tags (or a hyperlink to an updated list), but I'll leave all the original content intact and unchanged.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

The question is, do Dwarfs infuse any magical runic shenanigans into their Gyro copter/bombers, or are they purely magic free? @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

The answer is: No they do not! Gyrocopters and Gyrobombers are propelled entirely by the quality of Dawi engineering, with no runes or other magic required. Indeed the only runes used on Dwarf war machines are those inscribed to improve their already formidable performance, as seen in the rules (and Gyrocopters/Gyrobombers don't have access to those).

So I make that Dwarfs: 2, Empire: 0!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Skaven, however, I would push down one to join the Empire, because while they are infinitely more inventive than the men of the Empire, and more so than Dwarfs of either flavour, their creations are also infinitely shoddier than any made by those three other factions, on par with those of the Orcs and Goblins for the amount of malfunctioning they experience.

I forgot the Skaven in my ranking. I'm still not sure where to put them because their technology is so (often literally) very hit or miss.

Originally I could say Clan Skyre has all the tech and the other three don't, but I guess since I broaden my definition of "technology" to include all sorts of things, I would have to give the other clans some more credit, especially Moulder. So I suppose I would put them just below the Empire in A-tier.

The other guys have made some good points.

The only thing I thought of was moving the Skaven to the A-tier for the same reasons as @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl stated.

Skaven are pretty tech loving and use some creative inventions. But none of them are fully reliable.

Grrr, !mrahil

Some interesting points and strong push back against the Skaven's place in S-tier. Let me lay out my rationale for the inclusion of Skaven in S-tier and we'll see if any of you agree.

Let's get it out of the way, are the Skaven's technological machinations reliable?... NO, absolutely not. But it is not their focus either. Looking at my top three technologically minded races, I'd summarize them as follows:

• Skaven are inventive but not reliable
• Dwarfs are reliable but not (really) inventive (by nature of their unwillingness to adopt and create new technology and instead focus on the tried & true works of old)
• Chaos Dwarfs are inventive AND reliable

From Tamurkhan (page 175):
"In the creation of arms and diabolical engines of destruction, the Chaos Dwarfs of Zharr-Naggrund have no equal in the world save perhaps for the Skaven of Clan Skyre. Aside however from the superficial similarity of their desire to create ever more powerful devices, the approach and means to an end for the Chaos Dwarfs and the Skaven could not be further apart. Where the Chaos Dwarfs favour craftsmanship and reliability over mere speed of creation, the Skaven care not for such considerations in favour of raw power and getting the device in operation as quickly as possible, however unpredictable the result or potentially fatal it is to the crew."

At their peak creativeness, the Skaven are the only Warhammer race that can edge out the Chaos Dwarfs in terms of technological inventiveness. That is no small feat as the Chaos Dwarfs themselves are crafty bastards. Skaven don't care how many failures result, because everything is seen as expendable as long as it results in raw destructive power. As such, they are more willing than anyone else to take risks to design something new. This comes with obvious risks, but also allows them to push technology forward at breakneck speed.

At the very peak of their destructive achievements, the Skaven have:

• The Morskittar Engine / Zingecannon / "the Device" - the device used in the End Times to literally blow apart the moon Morrslieb. The resulting chunks of the moon that subsequently fell to the world destroyed the continent of Lustria. (ET Book IV Thanquol). Now, you all know what little I think of the End Times, but that is the way they describe it. Even if we ignore the End Times, and speculate on which race could create such a powerful device first, I think we'd all probably agree that it would be the Skaven. As it stands, this has to be the most technologically destructive feat ever unleashed in the Warhammer world (other than its actual destruction via Old Ones tech, which comes from the gods and thus is not counted for the sake of this discussion).
• Doomsphere - essentially the Warhammer world's first atomic bomb. (Thanquol's Doom, novel by C.L. Werner). We can choose to include or exclude Black Library material, but once again, if a Warhammer race were to create such a thing, it would be the Skaven. And it's a Warhammer NUKE!!!
• The Fellblade - the weapon that killed Nagash! Nagash, probably the second greatest Warhammer sorcerer of all time. Sure it kills the wielder too, but in typical Skaven fashion they got somebody else (King Alcadizaar) to do the deed.

Aside from their peak technological achieves above, their standard army book creations are also impressive:

• Warpmusket (mini Warplock Jezzail)
• Warplock Pistol
• Warplock Jezzail
• Plagueclaw Catapult
• Poisoned wind globes
• Warpfire Thrower
• Ratling Gun
• Doom-Flayer
• Poisoned Wind Mortar
• Warp-Grinder
• Doomwheel
• Warp Lightning Cannon

That is an insane arsenal of technology. Not only that, but it's such a diverse set of tech. Sure they backfire more often than the more reliable equipment of the Dwarfs, but it all balances out to reach the same level overall effectiveness.

It comes down to design intentions. Let me use the following analogue,

Who is the better sprinter?:

• a man who can consistently (10 out of 10 times) run a 100m race in 9.99 seconds OR
• a man who will run same 100m race in 10.99 seconds half the time (5 out of 10 times), but will run it in 8.99 seconds in the other half of his races (5 out of 10 times)

The Skaven are the second of the two sprinters. They can't consistently achieve the highs, but their highs are higher than achieved by anybody else. The Warplock Jezzail is a perfect example of this. It isn't as reliable as their human or dwarvian counterparts, but when it works, it shoots further and hits harder than either.

The Skaven simply have the exact opposite design approach as that of the vanilla Dwarfs. I'm still trying to debate which is the better of the two. However, even if you guys think that they are not on par with the Dwarfs, would you not agree that they are closer to the Dwarvian S-tier than the Empire A-tier? They are leagues above the Empire. The Empire can barely keep their tech functioning and even then, they can't hope achieve the same levels of destructive technology as the Skaven. Thoughts? @Scalenex @Killer Angel @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Imrahil

 

[Scalenex]

would you not agree that they are closer to the Dwarvian S-tier than the Empire A-tier?

No I would not. The fact that skaven tech is often flashy and impressive is not the point.

The point of technology is to solve problems and the skaven are not especially good at that. This is why I considered the vanilla the dwarfs better at technology than the skaven.

I can concede that maybe skaven should be the top of A-tier beating the Empire, but I don't think they are in the same league of either dwarf.

I don't really want to go back and forth on this, it makes little difference whether they are the top of A-tier or the bottom of S-tier, we seem to agree on their relative placement.

 

[Killer Angel]

No I would not. The fact that skaven tech is often flashy and impressive is not the point.

The point of technology is to solve problems and the skaven are not especially good at that. This is why I considered the vanilla the dwarfs better at technology than the skaven.

Yes and no. For Skaven, technology is seen as a way to bring destruction. They don't need tech to solve problems, they have a immense amount of disposable slaves. They need tech to hurt, skaven society is not based on improvement of the quality of life, but only on personal gain.
Even the "biotech" largely and successfully employed by Clan Moulder follows the same principle, and i think no one can peak their level of surgical skill and knowledge.
THeir tech compensates exactly what they lack as race, so i'd say they are pretty successful with that.

So, while i agree on your general concept, imo skaven are closer to S-tier than A-tier.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The point of technology is to solve problems and the skaven are not especially good at that. This is why I considered the vanilla the dwarfs better at technology than the skaven.

For Skaven, technology is seen as a way to bring destruction. They don't need tech to solve problems, they have a immense amount of disposable slaves. They need tech to hurt, skaven society is not based on improvement of the quality of life, but only on personal gain.

Good points on both sides, but I'm of the same mindset as @Killer Angel . Skaven "problems" are found on the battlefield. They aren't as strong, resilient or brave as their opponents, so they create machines of war and mutate giant combatants to give them an advantage.

Obviously most Warhammer technology, because of the nature of the game, will be centered on warfare. However, I think the following passage from the Skaven army book addresses @Scalenex 's point that technology is meant to solve problems:

"Warp-Grinder
To tunnel more quickly than typical slave labour, the Skaven deploy specially devised Clan Skryre machines. Some of the massive constructs are larger than the grandest ships of the Empire's navy. These huge devices combine great drills with warp energies to vaporize the broken debris as the machine bores. These rare machines are seldom, if ever, seen, but a portable version can often be found deployed on the battlefield." (page 64)

For a subterrain species like the Skaven, the ability to dig and borrow using mechanical means is a huge problem solver. Their entire society and existence is predicated upon that activity. Increasing the speed and efficiency with which that can be accomplished allows them to better build their underground cities and to expedite their movement into advantageous positions in order to undermine their enemies. Even for a human society such a device would be highly useful (in terms of mining) but for Skaven it is a fundamental aspect of their entire race. So they may not use technology to solve human problems, but they definitely use it to solve Skaven problems!


Skaven... the mad scientists of the Warhammer world!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Now the biggest issue I come to is the Elf factions. Both High Elves and Dark Elves field largely Medieval-level technology, with only one real war machine each - their respective flavours of Bolt Thrower, which are much better than anything a human can make but principally limited to troop-killing and certainly not capable of tearing down walls as the weapons of the Dwarf factions, the Empire and the Skaven are, or even the mighty Trebuchets of the Bretonnians. Coupled with the fact that most of their power comes from magic, and strong magic is not the same as good tech, then to be honest I would only consider them one tech level up from Wood Elves for having an artillery piece. Now that I think of it, I wonder if Wood Elves are a bit low down given that all three factions do make better-quality weapons than any human could dream of.

Thus I would consider High Elves and Dark Elves to both be C-Tier and Wood Elves pushed up to D-Tier.

In terms of the High Elves and the Dark Elves, I think the B-tier is the perfect spot for them. To justify B-tier we need to simply establish that they are superior to the Bretonnians (who are sitting at a rough equivalent to medieval tech). I believe that the Elves are technologically superior to the Bretonnians in the following ways:

• Quality - Both the HE and the DE produce items that are simply above the capability of the Bretonnians to fabricate. You shared the same sentiment with the following statements: "which are much better than anything a human can make" and "given that all three factions do make better-quality weapons than any human could dream of". Elven made weapons are second only to their Dwarven (chaos and vanilla) counterparts. Elven chariots are exquisite in design, demonstrating craftsmanship that is better than that of the humans. The Lothern Skycutter doubly so. While they don't have the full plate armour of the Brets, this is a result of purposeful design choice to maximize their fighting style. Their armour is lighter not because they are incapable of making full plate, but rather because their lighter armour helps them utilize their race's superior speed, reflexes, agility and fighting skills. Their stuff is simply better than what could be produced in the medieval period, which was the level I set C-tier at.
• Navel supremacy - Both the HE and DE races are masters of the sea. Their ships are far superior to those men and have a fair claim at being the very best in the warhammer world.
• Architecture - Their buildings and cities are vastly more difficult to construct than even the most impressive castles of the Empire or Bretonnia. If you asked a medieval nation to build a HE city, they could not. But either of the two Elven races could build a human castle and city if they chose to. The engineering, craftsmanship and material technology of the human settlements are simply more primitive.

As for the Wood Elves, they simply don't match up to their High and Dark Elf brethren (not that you made such a claim). They don't have any naval power to speak of and they, by choice, live in the trees... so architecturally they are behind the other Elven forces as well as the human factions.

That said, you do bring up a good point. Our mutual point on Elven weapon quality applies to them as well. When we discount the Chaos Dwarf produced equipment utilized by the WoC, and are left with marauder gear, it is grossly inferior to that of the Wood Elves. Sure the WoC forces have chariots and ships, but that's probably not enough to offset the quality factor of Wood Elf produced gear.

Wood Elves are a tough one to place, because they purposefully choose to live below what their technological skill would allow. If they made the decision to embrace technology and abandon their forest dwelling ways, they could move significantly up the list. Still, as is, I think you are correct that they are worthy of being bumped up to D-Tier. Anything past that would be unwarranted. Much like the Vampire Counts who could have the potential to utilize better tech than they do, we can only give the Wood Elves credit for what they actually produce.

What does everyone else think of the Wood Elves being bumped to D-tier?