8th Ed. Liz vs warriors of chaos 3000pts, I was slaughtered

[greenfish]

Hi!

I'm pretty much new to the whole warhammer fantasy tabletop game. This was my 4th game of playing. I try to play liike inbetween 2-4 months depending on when I have the time.

Since my (I) is so low, the woc always strikes first. Is there a way to remedy this, better solution?

Can you look at my army rooster and see if there's something I can improve on?

Game: 3000pts

Army: Lizardmen vs warriors of chaos



Lizardmen:

Kroq-Gar/Grimloq
Saurus Oldblood with dawnstone, warbanner, light armour, shield

Skink Priest lv2 lore of beasts horn of kygor
Skink Priest lv2 lore of beasts egg of quant
Skink Priest lv2 lore of heaven

Saurus scar-veteran skavenpeltbanner, great weapon mounted on cold one

60 skink skirmishers
55 saurus warriors (horde) shield, spear

2 jungle swars (to provide poision to saurus warriors)
20 temple guard
9 cold one riders (krog-gar joined them)


Warriors of Chaos

Daemon Prince+glitthering scales,nurgle+fly+soul feeder+scaly skin lv2
Exhalted champion helm of many eyes+halberd+juggernaut khorne
5 skullcrushers+emsorced weapons
25 chaos warriors - nurgle
25 chaos warriors - khorne
warshirne tzeektny
chimera+regen
6 chaos ogres+great weapons+khorne+full command
2x chaos spawn

His daemon prince and chimera flew and flanked my saurus warriors, in like 1 turn they killed most of my saurus.

How would I counter his skullcrushers cavarly? Everytime we meet, they alway seem to present the hardest challenge for me.

Thanks for the suggestions, remember i'm new to this game

 

[Wizgamer]

Hi there!

I assume that the scar veteran is the BSB?

Someone else may need to answer this one, but are non-standard bearers allowed to carry magic banners (old blood)?

Kroq-gar would be better out of the cold one unit (not subject to their stupidity)

I would suggest losing Kroq-gar and use a slann with lore of metal..... good counter for WoC due to the majority of them having AS.

 

[forlustria]

non bsb can not take magic banners and kroq-gar can not join coldones as he is riding a monster.

woc is tough for us. but a slann is your best bet for upping intiative

 

[GCPD]

His daemon prince and chimera flew and flanked my saurus warriors, in like 1 turn they killed most of my saurus.

How would I counter his skullcrushers cavarly? Everytime we meet, they alway seem to present the hardest challenge for me.

Thanks for the suggestions, remember i'm new to this game

Warriors of Chaos can be an extremely tough opponent at the moment, even for existing players - let alone new ones - do don't feel too hard done by. The problem is that most of their stuff has phenomenally good stats which are above and beyond any equivalent in any other army. Simply put, its impossible to go toe to toe with them. From the looks of it, you're also facing a highly optimised Warriors list (Can I assume your opponent is a bit more experienced?).

Of the three things you list above, Daemon Princes are probably the toughest. There's a very good thread in the Tactics section about how to beat them (http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/to-kill-a-daemon-prince.12471/), so I'll address the other two.

Chimera can be surprisingly fragile. They have a low number of wounds, low Weapon Skill, and their Regen can be beaten by Flaming. Fortunately, there's a ton of magic missiles that are Flaming, and most of them are signature spells. So if you find yourself with a Slann, try and grab anyone of them. Alternately, if you want to run without a Slann, our humble Bastiladon with the Solar Engine is great at Chimera hunting. Don't forget that they also have a very low leadership - try to take advantage of that by generating as much static CR in combats that you can.

Comparatively, Skullcrushers can be a breeze to deal with. As Frenzied cavalry that can't fly and with huge bases, they are surprisingly easy to redirect - it just takes a bit of practice. Wherever possible, try to set up the below situation (where S12 is a unit of Skink Skirmishers, SK is a unit of Skink-Kroxigor and S are the Skullcrushers).



The placement of the Skirmishers means that the SKullcrushers have to charge. Of course they then predictably wipe the Skinks out, but because they are Frenzied they must overrun. This takes them into the path of the Skink-Kroxigor, who beat them up with static CR, deny rank bonus and Steadfast, and run them off the table. Of course, you'll want to swap the Skink-Kroxigor unit for something else, as they are rubbish now. A unit of Saurus, Cavalry, Temple Guard or good old Ancient Steggy with Sharpened Horns should do the trick. Given that the Ogres are also marked and Frenzied, you can do the same trick against them.

Without a Light Slann, I'd say its probably not worthwhile trying to get your Saurus initiative up. You're going to have to rely on a combination of:

A) Numbers. You'll need to always outnumber the Warriors to absorb casualties. Important to this is also whittling down their numbers before combat begins, which the Salamanders are great for.
B) Don't get into a face-to-face slugging match; you'll lose. Wherever possible, try to use your Skinks to give you flank charges.
C) Concentration of force. If you do get sucked into a Warriors vs Saurus combat, try to bring something in on the flanks to help them out.
D) Buffs. Don't bother with the Initiative kind - as mentioned, you have to invest far too much for it to pay off. Go for things which will either keep your Saurus alive, and/or increase their damage output. Consider switching all your Skink Priests to Beasts for multiple Wildforms (its also a better chance of rolling Amber Spear, which is great against Daemon Princes!).

As to your list in general, there's a few recommendations I'd make. Don't bother with the Horn - it will only benefit your Saurus Cav in this list, which means only 5 additional attacks in the front rank. Similarly, the Egg isn't a great idea on a Priest either - generally, you want to avoid him getting into any combats. If you want the Egg I'd suggest giving it to a Skink Chief instead.

With the points from those items, you may want to pick up some magical protection, like Dispel Scrolls, if you're worried about that sort of thing. Otherwise, I'd strongly suggest getting Sivejir's Hex Scroll. Daemon Princes rarely go over level 3, which gives you a 50% change of turning them into a frog. At only level 2, you've got a 66% chance!

You appear to have the War Banner on your Oldblood. He can't take this as he cannot be the BSB, and wouldn't be able to take magic equipment in addition to the magic banner. Give him the Enchanted Shield to get him to 1+ with the re-roll, and a magic sword of your choice.

The Scar-Vet is fine, although I'd give him a Halberd over a Great Weapon. Without any magic armour he runs a chance of dying before attacking, which is risky for an expensive BSB. Initiative 3 won't beat much in the Chaos army, but its better than ASL (and means he'll go first over the Chimera and Nurgle Ogres).

You are way over the minimum 25% Core allowance, and trimming this down would free up a lot of points. I would probably rework your Core to:

40 Saurus (with Full Command)
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers
12 Skink Cohort with Banner
12 Skink Cohort with Banner

(The Banners are to help in Blood and Glory scenarios. If you are only playing Pitched Battle, drop both Cohorts down to 10, remove the Banners and add a third Cohort unit).

This gives you 350 points spare. You can do a lot with 350 points - for instance, an Ancient Stegadon with Sharpened Horns will run you back 250, and is great in keeping both those Ogres and Skullcrushers honest. You could spend the rest of the points on buffing up your Temple Guard unit, as 20 is way too small - try to get a minimum of 24 (if you are worried about models, just use some of the Saurus Warriors from that big block as 'counts as' for now). On the other hand, I think your list would really benefit from a Bastiladon. You'd have to tinker some more points if you wanted the Stegadon as well, or you could bring some Salamanders.

Hope this helps!

 

[Arraine]

Hey

I have played many battles against warriors of chaos recently and while I am not a very experienced player myself I can make a couple of suggestions - this is what wins the game for me:

1. Slann - Wandering Deliberations. The signature spells contain a healthy mixture of missiles and damage spells as well as buffs. You get spells with many attacks to deal with the larger units (fireball), flaming attacks for the monsters (lore of light), buffs from lore of heavens, beasts and life etc

2. Stegadon, Engine of the gods. Not quite sure on the engine. The 6+ ward save seems very useful (as I am running with spear saurus so they get the ward save despite not having parry save). I try to divert the chaos units or lure them into charge with a cheap unit of skinks so the stegadon can get a nice flank or rear charge and hack through them.

3. A couple of 10-20 skink skirmisher units. They are great for diverting / stalling the enemy units. Failing that, they will easily sneak around and provide rear or flank charges for combat resolution. The multiple shots are also nice for sniping down single models, especially with poison.

4. Skink chief with egg of quango in one of the skink units. Usually gets charged by a unit of chaos warriors, does the damage with stand and shoot, followed by the egg. On average takes out 8+- of the warriors. That followed by stegadon impact hits and thunderstomp wipes them out.

5. Large blocks of saurus + buffs. With the many spells your slann has, chaos either spends dispel dice on preventing the damage, in which case you buff up your saurus. In case the buffs are dispelled you are likely to land a big fat fireball or something similar on an unengaged unit. Having extra skink priests with lore of beasts almos guarantees +1 S/T from wyssans and those saurus suddenly become very tough and very dangerous. They should also be steadfast due to 5 ranks+

6. Jungle swarms. These don't seem so strong but they babysit my saurus nicely. If needed they will move in the way of a flank charge. Otherwise they will aim for the same unit the saurus do. The unit then either attacks the swarms as they are low toughness and have no save in which case my saurus remain intact, get all their attacks through and keep their ranks or they lose a couple but all their attacks become poisoned (they're everywhere!). When 6's generate an extra attacks AND wound automatically now that's scary.

7. BSB with armor piercing banner in the saurus unit. -2 to armour saves, quickly becomes -3 when you buff them. Helps a lot against their high armour saves.