Hey everyone, first post here on Lustria Online, and it's... abit different. I'm rather new to WHFB-- 2-3 months. I've played in a few tournies, and tried out a few armies. I recently picked up lizardmen and ran them in an 1800pt league. I've heard no end to the bitching and griping. What I wanted to ask other lizardmen players-- seeing as I assume most of us didn't choose lizardmen for their... cheese, I guess... when is the line drawn between our lists being too cheesy and... gimping ourselves? Now, I took a salamander heavy list, which with the power of hindsight was brutally cheesy. I'd tone it down in the future, and not even field them for friendly play. But this is a tournament. The griping has been non-stop. Salamanders are too much. Even when I played against the wonderful Dwarf army of "Hey, let me drop a template on you and clip 18 men by moving the center over ever so slightly." That's not cheese, but salamanders are, right? When I sat down for a talk with the gamestore owner to this extent, it was about taking things-- for any army in extreme. I had spent too much points on my Slann and his Templegaurd. Because having them together creates a large point sink hole. So, if I take a Slann, he should be naked, and not in TG? Or the alternative of the Carnosaur which runs into the same issue. You kit them out to survive and deal damage. But that's 'too extreme.' Where's the line here? As a new player I don't want to be 'that guy' who takes a 900pt slann, 6 sallies, and 2 stegs every friendly game. But I don't want to auto-loose a tournie because I didn't build the best competitive list I can... when I know others will be doing the exact same thing. If it's wood elves, and they try to evade and wear you down all game, it's not cheesy. If you pull that stunt with skinks, it's cheesy. If you take Sallies and play a template warfare game, it's cheesy, if you're dwarves though, a gunline is perfectly acceptable. Too many Steg's is cheesy, but two doomwheel's aren't? What do you guys think?
Never listen to those that complain. Every army is beatable. They either a) have a horrendous list and had no chance in winning, b) The dice goddess was not on their side and/or c) have very very basic tactics. If you have a 'cheesy' list deffinately run it for tournys, and the fact that you are blatently modest is fantastic. If anything I enjoy playing a honest opponent. So if they are complaing about your tatics/list tell them that you had to buy the models! And the fact for our army to be good we have massive point sink ares (slann + TG, EoTG, Lots of sallies...). And welcome to the sport. Whenever you do tournys you will always get moaners if they get smashed. Just as long you enjoy playing, thats all that matters. Lloyd
I disagree with Sao. This is a game, a mutual venture of enjoyment. And this is also not a very balanced/widely understood edition yet. Sure if there is a non comp tournament you are intitled to go for broke but not in anything less. Apples and Oranges. Effective and cheap templates coming from Lizardmen (who also dominate magic, combat and movement) is more annoying than expensive dwarf artillery. In 1800 points its a bit rough to have a bunker like that. The only way you can lose if your cheese is trumped (by say an Abomination, but you could always have the Banner of Eternal Flame...). Running a lone/hopping Slann (as in hopping from unit to unit) would make it require skill to protect him. Perfect play would see your list just as effective, but then it would be about generalship. Never tried a Carno myself. IMO it is probably pants (TOO pants/gimped). Here is what I think. If most of your list is Blowpipes (particularly chameleons), Terradons, Slann, Temple Guard, more than 2 Stegs (or Stegs and Life magic) or Salamanders... then the list will play itself, and you will win the game (unless you are against even cheesier Skaven) but lose the hobby. P.S. Also, comboing Focused Ruminations AND Focus of Mystery... please don't. The wind of magic roll is supposed to level the playing field, free dice is just... P.P.S Take a look at: http://rankingshq.com/etc/article.aspx?ArticleTypeId=2&ArticleId=218 I wouldn't pay head to the rules changes at the top like the changes to steadfast and the unit size caps, but the rest, particularly in magic, is a good guideline for "to far".
regarding salamanders: sure they're devastating when they get a good shot off, but they are also rather easy to kill considering thier points. yet people dont seem to target them in my experience, so imo it's thier own fault when thier units get toasted. on tournament play, unless there's comp, why not build a powerful list? personally i play away from the 'uber cheese' armies (like with an insane ammount of war machines or something), but i'm hardly going to not take the good things in the army. i can't imagine many people turning up to any tournament with razordons for example. anyone, anywhere, who complains about a carnosaur, regardless of build, deserves a slap. they are incredibly expensive when kitted out, and relatively easy to kill.
I would personally not pay alot of attention to their complaints as long as you are enjoying playing the armies yourself. If you look at the biggest tournaments since 8th came out you will no doubt realise that there are many other teams than LM in the top. This being despite the fact that those tournaments will be likely to bring out the cheesiest of lists. No army is unbeatable and a LM "cheesy" list is not much better than many other armies top-lists. If your opponent continually use units that are not worth their points value then I think I would start using my sub-optimal lists as well, but as long as you are booth trying to win, I see no reason in removing my good units because he is simply not good enough to beat me using them. Cheese is cheese and LM isnt any cheesier than many of the other armies out there (bretonians is the obvious exception).
I found that a great way to avoid being called "cheesy" is to never take more then two copies of the same unit. If you max out your specials with nothing but Salamanders, you will be called cheesy. If you take two units of salamanders and some terradons, you will probably not be called cheesy, even if all you do with the terradons is use them as meat shields. All armies have some cheap tactics, just try to be subtle about using them.
I've only played two games so far in 8th edition, one with someone new to the game. The one I played against a veteran taught me that some people will complain about anything. I took two seperate salamanders, 3 blocks of saurus, a slann with temple guard, two small units of skinks and only two magic items. He responded to every spell I cast, every shot I made, every movement with 'That's really pissing me off' 'that amy's just unbeateable' 'that's just way overpowered' etc.. He also, not surprisingly, won the game. He had a bunch of magic items and vampiric disciplines, 3 vampires, magic banners, etc, and it was my first game in 10 years. As far as I'm concerned, I have no problems running into a cheesy list, it gives me a struggle and learning experience, as long as the person has a good attitude.
I also like to add to my previous statement that people are often focusing way to much on the good part of LM units while completely ignoring their bad sides. yes we have an allround army but all units have their flaw. Salamanders go down easily to shooting and need to be fairly close to fire. In most games that means you wont fire untill round 2 and he will have a chanse to rid you of those 80/160 points fairly easy. Skinks are extremely good at taking down high-T units, but they are weak and will flee if hit by more than a gentle gust of wind. They have ld 6 (allthough coldblooded) and T2 without armour-save. They also have 12" range which is enough to put them in charge-range if your enemy doesnt allow big holes in his formations. Saurus are great but charge them with a monster like a hydra or a speciall unit like a spirit host and they will never do anything without a scar-vet since they cant have banners. On top of that they are an expensive core-unit which gives the opponent a chance to flank. To end with there is the Slann. He dominates his magic-phase and shuts doen the opponents. He is the general and the BSB. However he costs 375 points even when you decide on not giving him those extra speciall things that makes him realy nasty. Hes also put down in a unit worth almost that much (most people are especially hatefull against the slann+TG combo) and it makes a great target for all sorts of war-machines and game-winning magics. I agree that our units are good but to all of the good sides there are allways something that can be used by an opponent. Therefor I hate it when my opponent complains that "Skinks with poison are so OP" when i put 3 2ounds on his patheticly misplaced giant, while he will never acknoledge their downsides when he overun them in 1 turn with a pack of 7 wolf-riders.
I'm a big proponent for GW's rules and army books. We all have our moments where we piss and moan about a particular army or character set up. Heck when Skaven first came out and High Elves' BoH and Teclis I was screaming about unfairness as much as the next guy. But guess what! Teclis and BoH can be killed and I've beaten our Skaven players more times than I can shake a stick at. GW came out with these new rules and have items in the armies to make thing competative and make you think about how to defeat certain aspects. Instead of whinning and complaining about it use your noggin and work out how to beat it. I wouldn't listen to anyone who's complaining about your army. From what I understand your participating mostly in tournaments anyways and so you need to bring a list you can win with. If there aren't any comps then bring what it takes. If it's comped then follow the comp and whoop up anyways! Tournaments are meant to be competative and bare knuckle. It's when you play back home with your buddies that you put the sixteen oz. gloves on and sit back and have a good time. As for the ETC website...wow don't even let me get started on that comp. restrictions. They totally poned many aspects of the game and obviously favored some armies over others. If anyone came to me and my group with those restrictions and wanted to enforce them I think every single one of us would pitch in and help drag him out into the street for a curb stomping. My buddy whom is with me at work wanted me to add this in response to the ETC website:
Hey all, wasn't expecting this many responses, actually. Adressing Sao and Kroxigor01 at the same time... sorta.. I agree, people are moaning. All the time, while at the same time, sporting something equally douchey. What I really wanted to know is where's the line? Salamanders are cheap and effective. But dwarf marchines are infamous for not being expensive. They can cost an upwards of 125points, yes, but this is with awesome re-rollable runes. Where's the line? Dwarf Lord with a 1+ re-rollable armor save, 4 template weapons, and a super rune-lord who steals dice, generates dice, and carry a dispel scroll? Ontop of twice as many blocks of infantry as I sport isn't 'cheese'? But the Slann with his temple guard IS cheesy at 1800? Because... it's the Slann? That doesn't make... a load of sense to me. I agree with this, and it's been the best part of playing Lizardmen. The tactical flexibility of skinks/saurus/terradons. Except, in a tournament setting... why would I field the Slann by himself? Isn't that just BEGGING for a cannon ball to the face? Or eating a stone thrower? Or 40x repeater crossbow bolts? Etc, Etc. Why would you ever give up free points this way? To clarify, we play 'ard boyz Scenarios-- so no buildings and no giant hills to cower behind. I can respect this attitude, but no one I play against shys away from the awesome choices because they're cheesy. Book of Hoeth, Power Stones for Dreaded 13th Spam-- I could go on and on. I ask again, where's the line here? Am I being cheesy because I'm lizardmen and pulling their stunt, or do I not do it, and gimp myself?
In 1800 points no armies that aren't list tailoring will have the ability to shift 20 Temple Guard with T8 and regen. You forget the issue of phase domination. We can effectively compete in every phase (like Skaven, Dark Elves, High Elves. IMO the best armies). If you added Salamanders too Orcs, Ogres, Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen or Vampires they would instantly become a staple unit. This is why our opponents whine about EVERYTHING rather than just that 3+ Ward chosen deathstar for WoC or those Rerolling S5 pieplates from Dwarfs. Its because we GET everything. We have above average stuff in all phases. If they can't put their finger on exactly why your army is "so cheesy" then its probably because everything is cheesy (or they are a whiner, its hard to tell these days). He is vunlerable to cannonballs anyway (well not really, 5 wounds, 4+ ward, Lifebloom Life Lore attribute). This is why you hop rather than run alone, so the 40rxb can't target him. I guess its a decision you have to make in your gaming community/country's tournament rules. I hardly understand how say Book of Hoeth makes for tactical play. "Ok so I got 6PD and 2 from my banner of sorcery. *rolls* oh my whole army is +1 attack with M10 and you have -1 to hit at range". Unless someone wins by with paper Death magic to kill his rock Archmage, you lose. I do not understand why these are so bad: Rules changes: - Characters will get "look out sir" versus the following spells that automatically kill models or automatically remove an entire regiment: Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation, Dreaded 13th, Infernal Gateway 11-12 effect. Normal requirements for lookout sir apply. General Restrictions: No Special or Named Characters. A maximum of 4 identical core choices may be taken (regardless of equipment and other upgrades). A maximum of 5 warmachines may be taken per army Magic Restrictions: - Apart from Winds of magic and Channeling, an army may only generate 2 PD/DD per magic phase. - You may have units/abilities that actually would generate more than 2 extra dice, but any excess dice are lost - Some magic items/abilities count as generating dice toward this limit. - “Count as” items/abilities may never exceed a cumulative 2PD/DD per phase. This means that if you take the power scroll, you may not take any other items that “count as adding PD/DD” Item restrictions: - Power Scroll counts as generating 2 PD and 2 DD each magic phase - Each Loremaster ability counts as generating 1 PD each magic phase - Items that auto-dispel a spell counts as generating 1 DD each magic phase Lizardmen: Salamanders are a 0-1 Choice; Terradons, Chameleon Skinks and Stegadons (any kind) are 0-2 choices; Beclaming cogitations counts as generating +2DD, Cupped hands as +2PD/phase. EDIT: To make a point. I ran this 2000 point list a few times: Slann – Life, Becalming Cogitation, Focus of Mystery, Focused Ruminations, Feedback Scroll, Bane Head, BSB Saurus Warriors – 15, standard, musician (183) Saurus Warriors – 15, standard, musician Skink Skirmishers – 11 Skink Skirmishers - 11 TG – 15, champion, standard, Flaming banner, Gold Sigil Sword, Dragonfly of Quicksilver (310) Chameleon Skinks - 5 Chameleon Skinks - 5 Chameleon Skinks - 5 Terradon – 3 Salamander – extra handler Salamander – extra handler Ancient Stegadon The only way I lost is if I was against death/shadow magic and some initiative based thing got on my TG block or if I was against Skaven with 2 Abominations + 3 units of Gutter Runners. Book of Hoeth + Lore of Light also caused some trouble, but in the end squatting in my deployment zone and spamming poison, salamander and Dwellers saw me through. It was just a game of "who is the biggest dick".
Yes. Because I wasn't following those guidelines at the time. That was my OLD list that I now hold to be too cheesy.
Hey all, just adding something to this again... This is exactly what happened to me yesterday. Played in a local 1800pt tournament, and crushed everyone. I toned down the list incredibly, and was frankly, able to outplay the people. Diverting their charges, and fighting 1v1 battles with my T8 Temple Guard because they kept letting me have throne of vines. When it turned into a dick waving contest-- a massive rabid block of 60+ T4, ST4 beastmen(with wild-form to buff them up) with some super kitted out characters in it... and my response was to just HAMMER it with everything I had... Dwellers, Steg, the salamander I brought, skinks, Awakening of the Wood, then to isolate the 35+ that survived and fight them 1v1 with the TG... Well, it earned me a big, mid-game CHEESY Comp score. Honestly, despite that last place was a lizardmen player with a list very similiar to mine... my list was too cheesy. The only difference was instead of cupped hands, he took a chief on a steg with a warspear, and Kroxigar/skinks instead of skink skrimishers... it's like playing Lizardmen is a capital crime.
How so? Those are huge differences. SKrox are facepalm. Skinks are win. Combat characters are facepalm. Cupped hands is just...
I did kit out the Slann pretty heavily, in all honesty, but Cupped Hands and Becalming actually didn't come into play. They were wasted points. While I now-- four games in to lizardmen-- realize all of that together is quite tough, it didn't make my games at all. I dispelled... once... of that shadow Cannon ball spell with becalming. The list apart from that was: 24x Sauraus, H/W, FC 18 TG, Flaming Banner, FC 1 Ancient Stegadon 12x Skinks Skrim x2 1x 10 Camo Skinks 1 Hunting Pack of Sallies, 2 sallies. I'd also say, being new, other than some saurus cav left over, these are all the models I currently own. And as for the Stegadon Warspear Chief, I was going to run it, the only reason I dropped it was the point sink. And my fear of cannon balls.
Yeah that list isn't so cheesy. You have 3 Salamanders and a tooled Slann, but other optimal builds from most other armies should be on more than an even footing.
Just two sallies, as one hunting pack, sorry. That was my thought, but it seems this list has sparked a huge... uh... bitch-fest. Now players at my gaming club are calling for house rules. Largely to tool down Lizardmen. Fun, eh?
Welcome to whinehammer, we're all guilty of it at one point in time or another. If you are in a tourney and follow the tourney rules for comp (assuming there are any) then don't let it bother you. Most people, in my experience, are very sore losers and will seek to blame anything but themselves. Your list is solid without being over the top, IMO. I guess I'm lucky that the group I play with are all tourney-oriented, so even in our "friendly" games with each other we tend to go for hard lists and after the game is over we give out pointers to try to improve each other. If your group wants soft games then they need to say so-- or they need to sack up and work on being better players. LM are far from unbeatable.