Discussion Lizardmen lore plan of the old ones failed?

[Sebastian Eggleton]

Just been thinking lately that it seems that the lizardmen are never on the offensive during the history of warhammer and that ultimately the great plan never really accomplished anything . Especially when you consider the time span of there history they just do a lot of waiting feels to me as the writers never really had any direction for them . Now the Serophan has them as wondering space being made of energy with the sole purpose of just being there when needed seems a little weak and unimaginative doesn’t help that no new models help with that transition just curious to see what other people think of this ?

 

[Crowsfoot]

I'm not sure what direction GW want's to take our beloved Lizards, they didn't drop us so they must have a plan and as we are seeing new models for existing model ranges I see it as only a matter of time before one of two things happens.

1. We get new models
2. We get dropped

I can't really see us getting dropped as the lore for AOS has us along with SCE as the ultimate Chaos chasers.

 

[Aginor]

First of all:
Welcome to the forums!

As for your question:
This thread might be in the wrong section since your question is both about old lore and newer stuff, so @Crowsfoot or another mod should probably move it to somewhere more appropriate.

Ok, now on topic:
As I understood it (I am not an expert though) the Great Plan wasn't so much about getting control over the whole world, just to control key positions and have magical influence to make sure Chaos doesn't win.
Chaos has been in the world for many centuries (or millenia? Not 100% sure) and didn't destroy the world, so....it kinda worked for quite some time. But yeah, with the End Times it becomes apparent that in the end the Great Plan actually failed. Chaos won and the world was destroyed.

Behind the scenes....yeah to me it does feel that Lizardmen weren't as thoroughly explored in the fluff as they probably should have been. All the descriptions about them I read sound as if the Lizardmen and especially the Slann are so powerful that they can hardly be matched by anything except some High Elves magic and that they should be there on any front fighting Chaos alongside those humans and dwarves and elves and so on. But then it seems that most stories aren't centered around the Lizardmen at all but focussing on that Karl Franz dude and his pals?
Perhaps somebody with more clue about the fluff than me can help us figure out if and why that's the case. Perhaps humans and Elves just make better main charakters for stories....

Now about the newer (AoS) part of the lore:
Everything is centered on Sigmar and his dudes now. The Seraphon are often mentioned in the fluff and they are certainly characterised as both powerful and devoted to fighting Chaos, but as of now they haven't been doing all that much.
And again behind the scenes:
They just took all the old models and made warscrolls for them. It looks a bit uninspired because that's what it is. They did that for all armies.

And then as @Crowsfoot said: For some armies they make new models and fluff for them, and some are basically "phased out". First they don't receive proper updates anymore (like Greenskinz), and then they might disappear completely (like Tomb Kings).
That depends on many factors, of which some are in-universe (fitting the story or aesthetics) and some are real-world based (productions and whether GW can make profit with them).

 

[Sebastian Eggleton]

I do like the idea they implemented but just hasn’t in my opinion really connected with what came before . Just needs fleshing out more , there models don’t reflect the new lore thematically . I worked for Gw and do understand that they concentrate on what generates the most business but looking from a fans point of view seems like they have been left on the back burner , and with popularity of the lizardmen on total war and the changes made aesthetically to units like kroxigors that now would of been a good time while Intrest is st it’s peak

 

[Sebastian Eggleton]

First of all:
Welcome to the forums!

As for your question:
This thread might be in the wrong section since your question is both about old lore and newer stuff, so @Crowsfoot or another mod should probably move it to somewhere more appropriate.

Ok, now on topic:
As I understood it (I am not an expert though) the Great Plan wasn't so much about getting control over the whole world, just to control key positions and have magical influence to make sure Chaos doesn't win.
Chaos has been in the world for many centuries (or millenia? Not 100% sure) and didn't destroy the world, so....it kinda worked for quite some time. But yeah, with the End Times it becomes apparent that in the end the Great Plan actually failed. Chaos won and the world was destroyed.

Behind the scenes....yeah to me it does feel that Lizardmen weren't as thoroughly explored in the fluff as they probably should have been. All the descriptions about them I read sound as if the Lizardmen and especially the Slann are so powerful that they can hardly be matched by anything except some High Elves magic and that they should be there on any front fighting Chaos alongside those humans and dwarves and elves and so on. But then it seems that most stories aren't centered around the Lizardmen at all but focussing on that Karl Franz dude and his pals?
Perhaps somebody with more clue about the fluff than me can help us figure out if and why that's the case. Perhaps humans and Elves just make better main charakters for stories....

Now about the newer (AoS) part of the lore:
Everything is centered on Sigmar and his dudes now. The Seraphon are often mentioned in the fluff and they are certainly characterised as both powerful and devoted to fighting Chaos, but as of now they haven't been doing all that much.
And again behind the scenes:
They just took all the old models and made warscrolls for them. It looks a bit uninspired because that's what it is. They did that for all armies.

And then as @Crowsfoot said: For some armies they make new models and fluff for them, and some are basically "phased out". First they don't receive proper updates anymore (like Greenskinz), and then they might disappear completely (like Tomb Kings).
That depends on many factors, of which some are in-universe (fitting the story or aesthetics) and some are real-world based (productions and whether GW can make profit with them).

Thank you for the reply , contribution and welcome yes I was a bit unsure where to really post my thoughts as I usually ponder in solitude. Yeah I totally agree with The points you have made I really love the kroq gar model and seems to me a great direction for the look of all my Saurus models I suppose just gives me a greater drive to be more creative with converting models instead of waiting for the day they get some more love shown to them

 

[Aginor]

One of the "problems" Seraphon have is that (despite having lost Jungle Swarms, Tehenhauin and the Skink Chief) they still have a good amount of models available. I doubt they will receive new models any time soon.

 

[Sebastian Eggleton]

Yeah a lot of models to tinker with , very excited to see the direction there taken

 

[Warden]

Just been thinking lately that it seems that the lizardmen are never on the offensive during the history of warhammer and that ultimately the great plan never really accomplished anything . Especially when you consider the time span of there history they just do a lot of waiting feels to me as the writers never really had any direction for them . Now the Serophan has them as wondering space being made of energy with the sole purpose of just being there when needed seems a little weak and unimaginative doesn’t help that no new models help with that transition just curious to see what other people think of this ?

This thread probably would fit better in the fluff forum under the stewardship of mighty @Scalenex...

That being said, there are only two Slann who ever really up and actively did anything in regards to putting the Great Plan into action (my opinion), being these two:

1) Mazdamundi, Lord of the Sun City Hexoatl- the big one, who was finally roused against the Old World warmbloods landing on his shore. He destroyed the city of Cadavo (three times) then conducted several raids against other warmblood settlements, and even went so far as to mount expeditions against the Dark Elves and launch a great expedition half a world away to Albion. He was just getting started in the "current" timeline by bringing his armies to bear against the imperfections of the Great Plan when the End Times struck, so yeah... had the Warhammer World ever advanced in time instead of being nuked he would have been the prime candidate for Lizardmen armies moving around outside of Lustria.

2) Ulha'up, Voyager in the Rain Drops of Eternity- yeah his name is a bad pun, but unlike the rest of his torpid brethren who bemoaned the state of the world, this guy got up and did something about it. "Got up" might be a bit far, but he did order his temple guard to carry him around the world, smiting what he saw was corrupt, and gathering lost plaques and treasures of the Old Ones. He had traveled so far and so long with his army that he was but a distant memory. Granted his blurb was really short in the 7th ed. book, but it was an interesting one about one of the few slann who actively campaigned outside of Lustria. (link)

 

[Scalenex]

There are some fun things about the Great Plan
-No one said the Old Ones are always right
-No one said the Slann's access to the Old One's Plan is complete
-No one said the Slann can interpret the Old One's plaques and teachings correctly

Anyway everything is so vague that every fluff writer is able to come up with his or her own interpretation of the Great Plan...or not. You don't need to know the answers to the Big Questions to write an interesting story, especially if you are telling stories on a human (or skink) scale.


I did come up with what the Great Plan boils down to for my own fluff unvirse, so here is a spoiler. Well probably not a spoiler in that I was probably never going to reveal this in my fluff writings but it's behind everything an has been behind everything (in my mind) before Age of Sigmar was a thing.

The Golden Plaques state that only the Slann may look at it are very clear that the Lizardmen's job isn't to fix to the world's Chaos problem. They are supposed to set things up, so the warmblooded races can fix the world's Chaos problem.

This also implies that at some point the Slann will die of old age and the magic of the spawning pools will give out. The Slann aren't sure when, but they are willing to accept this. The Slann agree unanimously that they shouldn't share this with their servants. They believe, probably correctly, that this would be demoralizing.


The neat thing is, this works in Age of Sigmar too. There is some literature to imply that the Slann and their mentally constructed servants cannot live forever. They changed their tactics but the Slann are still trying to make the universe safe for the mortal Forces of Order the best way they know how. It just happens they are more proactive.

 

[Warden]

The Golden Plaques state that only the Slann may look at it are very clear that the Lizardmen's job isn't to fix to the world's Chaos problem. They are supposed to set things up, so the warmblooded races can fix the world's Chaos problem.

This also implies that at some point the Slann will die of old age and the magic of the spawning pools will give out. The Slann aren't sure when, but they are willing to accept this. The Slann agree unanimously that they shouldn't share this with their servants. They believe, probably correctly, that this would be demoralizing.

Really neat concept, with the Slann knowing that their time is limited, though because they are "seemingly immortal" to the mere mortal races of the world, and the rest of their lizard servants, they are moving reaaaaally slowly.

I also like the idea that the Slann understand that they are trying to set up the world in such a way that the warmblooded races can fix the Chaos problem, but is this something that they know is their goal as ordained by the Old Ones, or is this something they have come to realize since the Old One's departure? I could see an interesting struggle here between factions within the Slann, especially the really cynical ones who think the warmbloods are a lost cause.

 

[pendrake]

...with the End Times it becomes apparent that in the end the Great Plan actually failed. Chaos won and the world was destroyed.

Unless The Great Plan was, essentially: hold them off as long as you can, there’s a good lizard!

 

[Scalenex]

Unless The Great Plan was, essentially: hold them off as long as you can, there’s a good lizard!

That's simple to understand and very bleak.




So it's probably the official canon.

 

[pendrake]

That's simple to understand and very bleak.




So it's probably the official canon.

.......

 

[Lord-Marcus]

I'd say the great plan failed because of Slann inaction. Instead of ruminating they could have gone on the offensive, secured the polar gates and rebuilt them; or at least semi contained them.