8th Ed. Lizardmen vs. Dwarfs 2000 points

[lifestar]

This is the first game I played at my local tournament. I'll get around to putting up the rest, as well.

This was my first game with Lizardmen and one of my first games in WHFB, so I made plenty of mistakes. I also was fighting with an all-comers list against my most hated opponent (dwarfs). That said, I'm extremely happy overall with how things went, and I'm especially appreciative of the great advice I got on my list here (Anubris, Rhodium, you guys are great).

My list
Slann Priest w/ Lore of Life, Battle Standard Bearer, Focus of Mystery, The Focused Rumination, Becalming Cogitation, Cupped Hands of the Old Ones, Standard of Discipline
Scar Veteran w/ Cold One, Light Armor, Charmed Shield, Dawnstone, Burning Blade
18 Saurus Warriors w/ Musician and Standard Bearer (Scar Vet goes here)
20 Saurus Warriors w/ Full Command
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers
6 Chameleon Skinks
6 Chameleon Skinks
20 Temple Guard w/ Full Command
2x Salamander w/Extra Handler
2x Salamander w/Extra Handler

Right before the game started, I was trying to figure out how to fit in a couple additional Saurus and while I was doing the math realized I hadn't included the price of the Full Command upgrades for the Temple Guard (that is, I was 35 points over). My opponent was gracious enough to let me drop the command and play anyways- under the rules of the tournament, I probably could have been disqualified entirely. Anyways, I talked to a judge after the game and he let me modify the official list to show I didn't have command for the TG. I don't think the lack really hurt me in any of my games, but it was definitely annoying making such a stupid error.

Enemy List
Runelord
Thane
40 Warriors
35 Warriors
40 Hammerers
Grudge Thrower
Cannon
Organ Gun

Right off the bat I gave a huge sigh of relief to see that a) she didn't bring a ton of shooting or war machines and b) there wasn't an absurd amount of anti-magic. The first game I ever played was against Dwarfs and it consisted entirely of two things: every single spell I cast being contemptuously blocked, and then trying desperately to get into combat while something like six war machines and ungodly numbers of handgunners and crossbowmen mowed me down. Oh, and then I finally got there and some dwarf lord killing machine singlehandedly wiped out everything I had left.

Deployment
I lost the roll for table side, which concerned me because it let the three war machines get good sightlines. The dwarfs opted for a fairly tight deployment with the machines looking between the two forests in the middle of the table (can't remember what type of forest they ended up being, it didn't have any impact on the game).

I scouted six Camo Skinks as far forward as I could on each of her flanks, hoping to do as much damage as possible before the Organ Gun took them out. I put one of the 2x Salamander units on each flank, the Slann with Temple Guard flanked by two Saurus blocks in the middle, and the Skinks screening.

Lizardmen Turn 1
1. Movement
I push the Saurus, TG and Skinks forward, doing my best to keep the terrain in between them and the war machines. The salamanders swing wide looking to get off flanking shots on the warriors.

2. Magic
I roll well and have ten power dice to play with. Along with Rumination, this is excellent. The dwarfs- after adding everything up (sigh)- have nine. Incidentally, after some confusion it was ruled that you can never have more than 12 dice in your pool, but you can use more than 12 during your turn if the pool gets refilled (through the lore of death attribute, rumination, etc.) Anyone know if this is right?

Anyways, Throne of Vines is dispelled, as is Awakening of the Woods. I really have nothing left to cast so I go for a Dwellers Below on the Hammerers. No miscast, no IF... and he dispels it with the Dwarf version of the dispel scroll, only they get to bring like fifteen of them. Overall, that round left me thinking: Yay for unbeatable Slann magical prowess!

3. Shooting
The camo skinks take a wound off of the Cannon and the Grudge Thrower each. The salamanders open up on the warrior blocks at a pretty bad angle/distance, killing off four on the left and five on the right.

Overall, a disappointing first round.

Dwarf Turn 1
1. Movement
Everything moves forward. The right hand block of 40 (now 34) warriors charges my right hand block of Saurus but hit the screening skinks- not sure if this was an error. The left hand block isn't quite in range to attempt the same thing.

2. Shooting
Just like I knew it would, the Organ Gun kills the four Camo Skinks threatening the cannon and the rest immediately break (in future turns they run off the table, so I won't mention them again). The Grudge Thrower hits the right hand block of Saurus, perhaps hoping to alleviate the inevitable counter-charge against the warriors after they blow through the skinks. The cannon shoots at the Slann and plows through the Temple Guard, taking off five.

3. Combat
The Skinks melt away, inflicting a single casualty, and the 33 Warriors sneer contemptuously at the 15 Saurus about to crash into them... only to notice the Scar Veteran riding among them, blade aflame.

Lizardmen Turn 2
1. Movement
The Saurus block charges the warriors- I probably should have waited for more salamander shots but I wanted to see what the Scar Veteran could do. The Temple Guard set up for a flanking charge. The other Saurus and skirmishers are set up so the dwarfs can only charge the skirmishers, setting up a counter charge. The salamanders on the right are out of targets, so they move up to get in range of the organ gun; the ones on the left move to hit the warriors.

2. Magic
I have seven dice to play with, the dwarf has seven as well. I don't expect much to get done. Throne of Vines is dispelled, but Flesh to Stone goes off on the charging Saurus. Best result I could have hoped for from this phase.

3. Shooting
The skinks take off another couple warriors. The camo skinks take out the grudge thrower. The left salamanders pick off another five warriors.

4. Combat
Just beautiful. The dwarf champion is instantly killed on the challenge, and then my Saurus inflict 5 wounds, taking the unit down to 27 warriors... who attack my now-T6 troops and fail to inflict a single wound.

Dwarf Turn 2
1. Movement
I have to believe this was a serious error, but perhaps annoyed at the shooting, the unengaged warriors- still 30 strong- charge the Skinks, taking a wound to shooting and then wiping them out. My opponent was a good deal more experienced then I, but I really can't understand why this move made sense, opening her up as it did to a combination charge from the TG and Saurus block. Anyone know?

The hammerers set up a charge on the Temple Guard.

2. Shooting
The organ gun wipes out the other camo skinks, which is fine- they did their job, and bought my main army two rounds of artillery-free relaxation. The cannon takes out three more Temple Guard and the Slann is suddenly feeling awfully exposed.

3. Combat
The combat between my saurus and the dwarfs turns into a massacre; two saurus go down, followed by ten Warriors. The remaining dwarfs somehow manage not to break.

Lizardmen turn 3
1. Movement
I charge the warriors who just finished massacring my skinks with the Saurus and Temple Guard blocks. One unit of salamanders charges the organ gun, and the other moves up to hit the Hammerers.

2. Magic
I roll extremely well for winds of magic (sorry, I forgot to note the exact number- 11 or 12) and get throne of vines off, followed by a regrowth on the Temple guard which brings me back nearly to full strength. I throw everything else at Dwellers on the Hammerers and get IF. 40 Hammerers turn into 31 after some above-average rolling, but I don't care- the Runelord fails his test. I start to feel better about the Slann.

3. Shooting
The salamanders snack on Skink.

4. Combat
The scarvet and saurus finish wiping out the last of the warriors and reform to face the hammerers. On the other side the saurus champion challenges the thane and is instakilled, while combat itself- despite flanking with Temple Guard, sadly- is a literal draw, with almost no kills on either side. The organ gun crew is killed and the Salamanders are now directly behind the Hammerers.

Dwarf Turn 3
1. Movement
The hammerers charge the Temple Guard.

2. Shooting
My opponent spends a long time trying to work out a shot on the saurus + scar vet block, but ultimately realizes the grudge will have to wait to be settled, and gets revenge for the organ gun instead, wiping out my salamander.

3. Combat
Everything hits my Temple Guard and I start to feel a bit nervous about my Slann, who I think I may have overexposed. I go from 18 to 7 Temple Guard, LD 10/best of 3d6/re-rerollable keeps me in the fight. My saurus fare better, losing most of their front rank but dishing out the same to the warriors.

4. Lizardmen Turn 4
1. Movement
I try desperately to get my other saurus block into the fight but I'm too far away; next turn they'll be able to charge the Hammerer flank, at least.

2. Shooting
The Salamanders take out the organ gun crew.

3. Magic
Mediocre roll but it doesn't matter- with the Runelord gone, Throne of Vines is still in play and a Regrowth followed by Flesh to Stone on the Temple Guard gives me 12 Toughness 8 Temple Guard. That's actually too tough for anything left on the board to wound. I now am firmly over my bitterness towards the Slann.

4. Combat
A few hammerers, warriors, and saurus all go down, followed by a single temple guard (I forgot about the thane, sadly).

Dwarf turn 4
Combat grinds on, with the Saurus warriors taking heavy losses and being reduced to only a few models; the Temple Guard remain impregnable. Rules question; if the Thane is on the corner between two flanking blocks, can he just switch facing whenever (during my turn, and again during my opponents turn)? I didn't want to challenge it but it seemed weird that he was always in whatever combat was currently underway.

Lizardmen turn 5
1. Movement
The saurus + scarvet finally charge into the flank of the Hammerers. We're now arranged like a zipper:


_____________________Hammerers---------Saurus w/ Scar Vet
________________________|
Warriors w/ Thane------Temple Guard
_______|
Saurus (almost dead)

2. Shooting
Salamanders realize they can't shoot anything, and stupidly last turn I forgot to get them in position for a charge into the Hammerers rear. Dammit.

3. Magic
I roll snake eyes. Throne of Vines was dispelled so I throw two dice + rumination at Flesh to Stone and roll high but its dispelled. I hate how dwarfs can do that.

4. Combat
The Scar Vet tears through the Hammerers, who break (?!? I had thought dwarfs breaking was like Temple Guard breaking) and run. I choose not to pursue so I can get my scar vet into the other combat. The Thane finishes off the Saurus but the Temple Guard kill enough warriors to force another break test, which the Dwarfs barely pass.

Dwarf Turn 5
The hammerers rally. The Thane decimates my Temple Guard again (seriously isn't this supposed to be elite infantry?) and I'm somehow back down to seven TG.

Turn 6 plays out with the Hammerers rallying but never getting back in it, regrowth and flesh to stone going off on the TG, and the saurus w/ scar vet charging into the warriors flank. Nothing else gets finished off but I kill all but five warriors and the Thane.

Ultimately, I lost both units of Skinks, a unit of Salamanders, both units of Camo skinks, a full block of Saurus and half my temple guard unit. In exchange I got everything but the shreds of the Hammerers and Warriors, plus the Thane. Oddly, the whole time I felt like I was crushing the enemy, but it works out to be only a marginal victory. Not that I'm complaining- it was a fun game and I thought all my units did everything I wanted them to, except for a generally lackluster performance by the Salamanders.

 

[Suspicious Lizard]

Yeah, the only games I have ever played were against Dwarfs (My friend and I picked this up as a hobby) and he brings nothing but loads of magic denial. I am sure in a tournament you have no way of knowing who you will be playing, but I find taking Slanns that dont cost me 500 points if I accidentally die in an IF cast and taking Razordons in place of Salamanders work best against the loads of magic denial dwarfs can stack, especially in my case when your opponent gets +4 on every dispell attempt and takes one of my dice, and adds 2 more every turn. Also, if there are buildings present, you can totally put razordons in them and be amazed when they have to charge you and take 2 scatterdice worth of strentgh 4 stand and shoot per razordon. I am a huge fan of using old bloods (put them on a horned one for 30 points, and move happily across the board 16 inches on a march and 8 inches plus 3 dice for a charge and ruin the stubby dwarfs day!) and cheaper slanns since they can rack a lot of damage if you arm them right, or even taking Tetto'eko in place of a slann and making them rethink ever taking a castle again by casting a mega huge comet. But congrats on your win, you are right Dwarfs are the bane of our existence so a marginal victory is a great thing no less! I posted an article vs the dwarfs too, check it out, and I'd be more than happy to trade some ideas on good 2000 pt builds.

 

[Rhodium]

Nice work on the win,

for the answer to your questions:

"t was ruled that you can never have more than 12 dice in your pool, but you can use more than 12 during your turn if the pool gets refilled (through the lore of death attribute, rumination, etc.) Anyone know if this is right?"

Yes this is correct, you can indeed "refill" your pool after using some of the dice, one of the great things about rumination!
however, in most tournament comps here (the UK) and ETC comp (dunno about america), it limits you to either
12 dice per magic phase maximum
or
only 2 more dice can be added outwith the winds of magic and channeling
or sometimes both rules, but technically in an uncomped environment you can as many as you can get as long as you dont have more than 12 at any one time

"Everything moves forward. The right hand block of 40 (now 34) warriors charges my right hand block of Saurus but hit the screening skinks- not sure if this was an error"

Yes this is an error, you have to complete the charge against the unit you declared the charge against, so if he charged the saurus he could not get into combat with the skinks. He had to either declare a charge against the skinks or fail the charge to the saurus.

"I have to believe this was a serious error, but perhaps annoyed at the shooting, the unengaged warriors- still 30 strong- charge the Skinks, taking a wound to shooting and then wiping them out. My opponent was a good deal more experienced then I, but I really can't understand why this move made sense, opening her up as it did to a combination charge from the TG and Saurus block. Anyone know?"

Yeah this is very weird, seems strange, also why didnt you flee the charge, let the dwarf block stumble forward then charge it with the TG next turn? this would still save your skink unit from destruction.

"if the Thane is on the corner between two flanking blocks, can he just switch facing whenever (during my turn, and again during my opponents turn)? I didn't want to challenge it but it seemed weird that he was always in whatever combat was currently underway."

Yes, you must engage a foe that is in base to base with you, but if the thane is in BtB with both units, he can decided each turn who to attack unless he was challenged out

"I forgot to get them in position for a charge into the Hammerers rear"
Probably a good thing, Hammerers would probably kill the sallie giving them easy combat res



But good game anyway well done

 

[lifestar]

Thanks for all the help! I think one problem I may have is that because I generally am nervous about coming across like a rules lawyer/I'm fairly new, I spot things I think are wrong (like the charge against the saurus leading to combat with the skinks) and am really hesitant to say anything. At least it worked out in the end.

Overall thoughts:

In general I'm a little disappointed with the salamanders; in three out of the four games I played, things wound up in close combat quickly enough they didn't have much to do. I may cut down the numbers a bit. To be fair, though, I really hated my match ups- Dwarfs, Daemons, Ogres, and Skaven- and in the last round against Skaven, the Salamanders basically killed every core block by themselves.

The Scar-vet setup is gold. It even killed a very scary hellpit abomination for me (albeit after getting buffed), which I wasn't expecting.

The Camo skinks are great when the enemy deploys poorly or the terrain favors me, but in a lot of matchups they died before getting into the enemy artillery/monsters. That said, they soaked up a lot of attacks that could have been aimed at my core blocks, so I can't complain too hard.

Against big characters/monsters (the Bloodthirster, HPAs, etc.) I didn't have that many options aside from trying to get as many poison shots off as possible. Not sure how to remedy this. Skroxigor? Another scarvet? Steg?

I like the Slann setup but Life seemed hit or miss. When Throne of Vines goes off, things are great, but people know they have to block it. I'd like a little more offensive power. After having a nasty time with some big enemy characters/monsters, I'm thinking maybe death. I know it's not the favored lore, but I'd also love even more power dice...

 

[newscales]

I've been going more Light than Life on my slann, and leaving Cupped Hands off of him. the math just doesn't work for mosts of my lists and they can dispell thrones and shield both during their magic phase, which sucks a lot.

sallies are great, don't give up on them.

 

[Rhodium]

To echo newscales

I also prefer light (or at least light/death) because it gives you much more flexibility,

I use the buffs to win combat and the magic missiles to deal with tricky things.

Boosted shems to deal with tough/armoured entities
And
Banishment to deal with ward saves (tzeentch disk riders are a fav)

It is easier to cast as well and when in combat both
Speed Of light and Phas Protection are equally useful so the opposition don't know which to dispell.

Coupled with a level one priest with iceshard, people are often hitting you on sixes!

Against big monsters, Skrox is the way to go, enough skinks to remain steadfast for first couple of rounds while the Krox attempt to put a few wounds on them, also can't be thunderstomped which is a big bonus


Sallies are king, don't be put off by their poor result, multiple wound tough unit (ogres), tough units (dwarfs) and ward saves (daemons) are the opposite of what sallies want to shoot at


They like low toughness (any elf, empire, vampires, TK) high armour saves (WoC) and things with low Ld thus prone to panic (OnG, beastmen) and they wreck face, in my last game, one sallie beat an eagle in combat, flamed and panicked 20 white lions that then never got into combat, and hit a Mage (failing LoS) twice. Basically held the whole flank themselves.

When it comes to people playing the rules wrong, when I first started I felt bad and some people seemed annoyed you correct them but then I realised, hey intentional or not,you are cheating me and cheating the game, that isn't fair regardless of how awkward you make it, so I call it all now, I don't rules lawyer with pedantry or grey areas, but if you play it wrong like charges, ill tell you and make you re do it

 

[newscales]

charges is one of the most complicated parts of this game. redirects, pursues, overruns, order declared and acted out....its tough. I hate close combat personally, terrifies me to lock up a unit and hope for the best unless I'm sure I have the advantage.

then again, my dice are cursed.