8th Ed. Lizardmen VS New Dwarves

So, the new Dwarves are finally upon us.

I know it's a little early, but I thought I'd start this thread to see what people are doing to combat them. I will be facing them reasonably often as a mate has Dwarves so I'd like to be prepared.

Without any experience I can play no further part in this thread(yet), but please fire when ready!

 

Had a look at them recently. Some stuff made me kinda worried, once the Dorf players figure out combos.

Ancestral Grudge is worthless against us, kek.
Resolute means +1 Strength when they charge, it's on most of their units, just FYI. Joke is they're too slow to usually get the alpha strike (even on us, because we have Lore of Light and now Hand of Glory from High Magic to speed us up). Keep in mind though, it can swing combats.
Relentless means they can march even if we're nearby. Kinda irrelevant, we're more focused on just straight up murdering them into the ground.
Shieldwall is kinda huge. They get 5+ parry when charged. Seeing as most of them are taking great weapons though, this won't often come up. Like with Resolute though, just be aware of it. It's still only a 5+ though...
Natural Resistance means they get +2 to dispel rolls. Given our usual caster is a Level 4, this isn't especially relevant.

Lords:

Fighty General is nice, you can make him superkilly and supertough, but he's still slow as a glacier and Dwarves have no way to stop the usual RFP nukes we have access to (beyond standard dispel, and their dispel runes which replace the usual scroll in most armies). Same goes for the SC's, they specialise in being slow and hitting like freight trains. Dwellers, Pit and/or Death Magic all ruin them.

Runelords are basically like Ogre Slaughtermasters; no one takes the generic fighty General, because the magic (or in this case rune) guy fights just as hard and can still be a Level 4. Aside from the usual 'no fun allowed' rune selection (ie dispel/MR levels), the biggest thing this guy brings is Forgefire aka free Armour Piercing. On a unit of Hammerers, or Ironguard, or even on basic Warriors/Quarrelers, this is insane. They also generate dispel dice and give their unit MR2 by default. Our nukes go through MR though, and we still dominate the magic phase. You should probably assassinate him though, he's likely going to be the General. He's also got access to the Anvil. Amusingly, the Anvil now uses the bound spell rules, so you can dispel it. It does add one power die and one dispel die every turn though, so again assassination is preferred. The buffs are Immune to Psych (3+), +1 save(4+), and standard 2D6 S4 rubbish damage spell(5+).

Daemonslayers are, like all previous editions, joke unit included for completion's sake.


Heroes:

Pretty much unchanged.

Master Engineer can LoS! to friendly warmachines and gives them a re-roll, just like his Empire counterpart. He also has some neato gear which he can't use if he uses his warmachine buff. Most likely taken naked to sit with the cannons.

Runesmiths give Armour Piercing and MR1, and can channel dispel dice.

Core:

Warriors compare favourably to Saurus, however I think Saurus have a slight edge in that they have more attacks (especially if Predatory Fighter procs) and access to buffs like Wildform, Speed of Light or Hand of Glory. Mind you, Dwarves have guns, so it's likely you won't hit their lines at strength.

Quarrelers+Runesmith is brutal. -2 to armour saves, wounding on 4's against Saurus, range 30". Not to mention Quarrelers still wear heavy armour and have access to great weapons (so they're basically Warriors with crossbows).

Thunderers are outclassed by the Runesmith combo now, so I doubt you'll see them as often. They can't fight in melee at all (S3 lel), so be happy if you see them, you can tie them up with Skinks easily.

Longbeards can bring a runic standard, but my feeling is that you'll only see maybe one unit or two. Quarrelers+Runesmith are just so flexible and lethal by comparison.

Special:

Hammerers are most likely going to be the Runelord/BSB bunker. They trade favourably with our Temple Guard and they crush Saurus, so like usual, drop a nuke on the bunker.

Ironguard are a little outclassed by both Hammerers (as a melee bunker) and the new Irondrakes (who can shoot pretty well and have Flammable resistance built in). 5+ parry and a 3+ armour default are nice, but S4 is a limitation.

Miners and Slayers don't matter too much, we don't have warmachines and Slayers can be tied down by Skinks or Saurus if you need to protect any monsters you have.

Cannons are cannons. They bumped them up by 20pts, like with Empire. Doesn't mean jack, still likely to see 3-4 of these. Sigh. Runes are still largely the same, accuracy, flaming, re-roll misfires etc.

Grudge Thrower is around too. Flaming stone thrower hurts.

Gyrocopters can be spammed now, they're pretty cheap and you can field 6 below 3k, 12 at 3k+.

Rare:

Organ Gun, Flame Cannon are the same. Same runes as in Special.

Rangers...eh

Irondrakes will probably be taken, 18" S5 Armour Piercing is pretty brutal. They also get a S8 D3 wounds 24" torpedo on the Champ, will probably be used to wreck Scar-Vets on Cold Ones or any monsters you bring.

Gyrobomber isn't much more expensive than a regular Gyro and does a lot of anti-infantry work. Probs going to see it too.


Standard tactics from last edition work here. Use a Slann to nuke their General+BSB bunker, Terradons work at killing cannons and Grudge Throwers, use mounted Scar-Vets as suicide missiles. I'd put hexes on their infantry or at least buffs on ours before engaging in melee, they're not likely to flee and we're going to get torn up by great weapon spam. Try to avoid using spells that cause wounds, that way their MR never triggers. I'd avoid bringing monsters, cannons make short work of them, especially with runes.

 

The runesmith "Armour Piercing" rule only applies to the models, not the weapons, so it doesn't give "Armour Piercing" to the crossbows.

I think that one of the main strengths of the new dwarf book is the parry saves, so would expect to see almost every dwarf with a shield for the 4+/5++ saves.

In competitive lists I would expect to see the +2 to dispel banner. This makes bound items less useful as they do not loose concentration when they fail to dispel, and the entire dwarf army counts as a lvl4.

Ray

 

Actually from what I've seen the Organ gun doesn't seem all that powerful. Sure they get 2 artillery die worth of shots, but that increases a chance at at least one misfire rolled, and then they have to roll to hit and wound after that. Plus we can get an Ice Blizzard off and protect ourselves even more. The flame cannon, irondrakes etc seems more scary to me...

The Gryocopter doesn't seem all too powerful either. More of a harassment unit than anything else. From a preliminary reading they seem a tad boring and have limited usefulness. The Gyrobomber (or Chinook as I'll be dubbing it) on the other hand seems a lot more interesting to play. I suspect to combat it we'll need a Bastiladon Solar Engine spell or engage it with some Rippers. In addition, simply having Wyssans up a lot appears to reduce a lot of the problems caused by the template style weapons.

Furthermore, I think Thunderers with Shields look like they'll play quite a big role. Having a big block of 15-20 of them should be enough to hold a charge (thanks to 5++ parry saves) and have a reasonable damage output (thanks to a gun with solid range and S, not to mention the 'no penalty to standing and shooting' rule). With all that Ld 10 hanging around they'll probably hold at least one combat and then some Hammerers/Ironbreaker/Similar can flank charge in the subsequent turns.

And finally, as you say, our magic (and anyone's for that matter) is probably going to wreak havoc with their somewhat more limited magical defence.

That's all my opinion though, and is based solely on a preliminary study of the army book. I'm sure in the coming weeks I'll be proven wrong as Dwarf players find their style!

 

I think the Gyrocopter is actually one of the best buys in the new dwarf book. At only 80pts it offers lots of mobility to an otherwise slow army. The drop bombs ability and str 3 AP template weapon means that it will chew up skinks and saurus fairly easily. Some of the battle reports over on Bugmans Brewery are showing that multiple gyrocopters can wipe out units of savage orcs (similar to saurus). The reliability of the "can't missfire" template, significantly cheaper cost than a Gyrobomber, and ability to vanguard will likely mean that you will be seeing many more gyrocopters than gyrobombers.

 

Meh, I agree that having such mobility will be useful for a Dwarf player, but S3 just doesn't get me excited enough. Obviously, yes, he will eat Skinks for breakfast, but then I don't run loads of Skinks really so it's less of a problem for me. Saurus, being T4 are naturally more durable than Skinks, plus with the larger base size fewer will be hit. Plus, with Wyssans we become T5 so almost immune. The downside though will be that anything that is wounded won't get an armour save.

Plus (in my army anyway) I'd be quite happy with them chewing up my 50-100pts Skink units!

 

Hey guys,
Seeing as I have played many games against the new dwarves (with quite a clever and strong commander in control) I just waned to add my input and maybe win a few games for you guys.

First thing that everyone needs to know is that IronBreakers>Hammerers (both with a Runesmith) the new ironbreakers are incredibly good, they are unbelievably durable and can take so many hits with the 3+/5++ saves. They are even better with the smith and they gain the magic resistance (not much but it helps them survive even longer) and most importantly the armour piercing, this is a massive boost to them and it makes them very good at dispatching our troops. In all the games I have played they have performed much better than the hammerers as the hammerers can be taken out so much easier as their armour is not as good and this really hinders them more than you think. These new ironbreakers are a very scary unit that you should take out as quickly as possible (if you can!!)

The second unit I must talk about the the Gyrobomber / Gyrocopter as both of them give the Dwarves a lot of speed that they are very much lacking. The copter is very good at taking out our skints and rippers and its drop bombs can also do a lot of damage so be careful. The bomber on the other hand is very good at taking out bigger units as its bombs are very powerful, be very cautious if facing these and try and take them out quickly.

Another thing about the dwarves is the fact that their warmachines took a fair hit, not in stats but in price. Their stats are basically the same (however they can not longer get engineers which is a big blow, they can get runes to do the same things but they cost 3 times more) but the price of all the machines has gone up which means that we will ve facing less of them which is obviously a good thing.

Finally I just want to add that they have some very good and unpredictable new runes which can easily change a game if you don't pay attention to them.

Hope this small amount of advice helps and if you have any more questions about the book in general or any specific rules or units/characters please ask as I'd love to answer.
Thanks a lot,
Charlie

 

Ah cheers, good save. I notice the special rule only mentions close-combat attacks. Still, you probably will see Quarrelers as Core, 30" S4 shooting is painful and they get great weapons as well.

Problem is though, most infantry blocks beside Ironbreakers are going to go great weapon, so the shields only matter against ranged attacks. Warriors and Quarrelers don't work as S3, they need great weapons to deal with Saurus, Chaos Warriors etc.

Yeah it was in the last army book, not surprised to see it taken regularly now as well. I'm not too fussed, I mean we're used to Level 4's cockblocking our Solar Engines and Priests in other armies, it's basically the same thing.

Not really man. You're forgetting several things.
Firstly, TG go first, always. S5 shreds Hammerers, and that's before we put any magic buffs out (which may or may not be dispelled). Mindrazor, Speed of Light, Hand of Glory, even the Wildform buff from Beast Priests is enough to swing things hard in our favour.
Secondly, Hammerers move even slower than TG. So, it's pretty likely you'll get the alpha strike, which means they get neither their +1 Strength from charging, nor do they get parry bonus (as they can't use shield with great weapon).
I'm honestly more worried about Ironbreakers. They go sametime (assuming no buffs), with a Runesmith they force -2 to TG armour, and they get effectively 5+ ward saves in melee.

Of course, I'm only speaking in a vacuum. In reality, the Dworfs rek you from 30" away with warmachines and your Slann dies to a cannonball. GG.


Gryos are gyros, don't think they got worse at all, and now Dwarves can spam them as much as they like. The new bomber is pretty hella sweet, Skaven and other horde armies are gonna hate it with a passion.


Haven't really dug into the runes much. Thoughts?

 

Longbeards. One more point than a Saurus Warrior base. Weapon Skill 5, S4 (can take Great Weapons to get S6), T4, 5+ Armour Save (can take Shields). Ld9, Immune to Psychology, units within 6" re-roll panic tests, can take a runic standard up to 50 points, +1 S on Charge, +1 Ward on defence, 33% chance of Hatred each game.

Core. CORE.

This is from the same man who decided that Jungle Swarms - Jungle Swarms - were too good to be Core in the Lizardmen book, let alone something remotely interesting like Cold One Riders (but I guess they are too OP, right?). And other than Attacks, Longbeards have better stats than any non-hero Lizardman choice.

This is why I despair with Lizardmen. Everyone else gets interesting options to build up their Core. We get 600 points of whatever - probably Skinks.

Lets see, I'll take 24 Longbeards with Great Weapons and Vanguard, please, and push them right up in your face turn 1. Oh, that leaves me with 200 points to spare? Cool, I'll take 16 Thunderers with 4+/5++ in combat and S4 AP shots.

/rage.

 

They changed the oath stone to not be pointless and in a unit of ironbreakers with 3+ armour and 5+ parry that can't be flanked or disrupted with the stubborn bsb can be a nasty roadblock

 

cannot wait to play against a dwarf player with gyrobomber. just on the offchance the bomber drops bombs on my unit, manages to scatter and with a straight hit on the bomber itself. id laugh my ass off.

 

There should be a rule which says: any Dwarf player with more than 2 Gyrocopters must play 'Flight of the Valkyries' when moving!

 

I played a 1500 point game vs dwarves this weekend.

My list
Slann, harmonic convergence, channeling staff, Iron curse icon and Lore of Light

25 Saurus, FC, Spears
10 skinks with javelins
10 skinks with javelins

4 Kroxigor, ancient
4 Rippers
5 CoC, banner, muso, spears

1 salamander
1 salamander

His list
Dwarf Lord
Thane bsb

28 Longbeards
26 Hammerers

1 Gyrocopter
1 Gyrocopter

1 Organ Gun
1 Cannon


I had more drops than him and so I got to decide the match ups. He put his cannons on a hill on his left corner and his big blocks are in the central area. One Gyrocopter is on each flank.

I line up my rippers across from his warmachines, followed closely by my CoC. My Slann joins the Saurus and they are on my right side. There is a forest in the middle that the salamanders look to move into. My cohorts are on either side of the forest. My kroxigor go on the far left to deal with the gyro.

I get first turn, between vanguard and 20" move I get right up near the warmachines. My salamanders move into the woods. I move my cohorts forward to tempt the gyrocopters. My kroxigor hang back so that I can charge the gyrocopter on my left flank. The only spells I get off are Net of Amyntok on his organ gun and a banishment on the gyrocopter to my right. I roll high for banishment and the gyrocopter crashes.

He goes next and moves his remaining gyrocopter forward to flame my left unit of skinks. The rest of his army moves back. I'm mostly at the midline of the table now so he moves a couple inches back. I believe warmachines autofail strength tests... we rolled for it and he got a 6 anyway so the cannon didn't fire. The cannon fires and kills 5 saurus. The gyrocopter kills two skinks because he kept it just a little too far back for fear of the kroxigor charge.

My turn, charges. Rippers into the organ gun. Kroxigor charge the gyrocopter which flees. My salamanders move up into flaming position. My saurus block hangs back and my CoC move around to stay out of LOS from his hammerers but if he makes a long charge into my saurus my CoC will have a flank. For magic, I net his hammerers and blast his second Gyrocopter down with banishment. One salamander misfires and eats all his skinks. The second gets a good hit and kills 8 or so Longbeards. In combat my rippers don't do any wounds to his organ gun... he does 1 so we tie.

On his turn, he charges the longbeards into the solo salamander (now stupid). He tries to charge with his hammerers but rolls a 5 for his strength test. He shoots down 5 more saurus. The salamander kills 2 dwarves before he's beaten down. The longbeards reform to face my other salamander. I kill my first dwarf crewman with the rippers...

On my turn I measure and the 4 kroxigors are in the flank of the longbeards... so they charge. He flees. I move forward with my skinks and salamander. For magic I start blasting away his hammerers. There are probably 18 or so left. I am pretty sure that I net his general again this turn. The salamander flames his fleeing unit. I kill my second crewman with no losses, he holds.

He rallies his longbeards. His hammerers fail their charge and aren't netted. He cannon decides to shoot the Kroxigor and puts down 2 of them (I had them in a 2x2 formation). I kill the last crewman and prepare to charge the cannon.

I charge the cannon. My salamander moves past his fleeing unit and lines up a good shot... except I make a mistake and put a unit of skinks in between the longbeards and his hammerers. This will reduce the effectiveness of my shot. I only kill a few. I blast off a few more spells just trying to wittle down his rather large hammerer block. I kill one of the crew and they hold.

He charges a unit of skinks that I put into between the two blocks. I flee and roll a 4 and he charges 11 or something which puts him out in front of his hammerers. The Hammerers reform to face my CoC. I still don't kill off the crew...

I measure and see that the CoC are in the flank of the longbeards. I charge my saurus block and my CoC into his Longbeards. I shoot his hammerers with my salamander which kills several more. I fail to cast anything. I break his longbeards and run them down. There is still one crewman left...

He reforms to face my CoC and Saurus block. In combat I finally kill the crew and reform to face the rear of his hammerers (the unit I dropped the blot toad on).

I charge the rippers into the rear of the hammerers. I reform to face my saurus and my CoC to face the hammerers. I get net off on the rippers. The rippers kill 6 or 8 of the hammerers and then lose all but 1 with 1 wound. I win combat but he's stubborn.

I kill a couple of dwarves, he's down to 1 rank with his BSB in it. The last ripper dies.

I charge in everything, kill all but the standard and the bsb. Over the ensuing two combat rounds and the game ends after my opponent's turn.


I think the tactics for fighting dwarves will be the same as always. If you can pick off their cannons and anything 'maneuverable' then the combat blocks are in a bad position to catch you. I watched a wood elf player beat a dwarf player in the old book simply by shooting enough arrows at his cannons and staying out of charge range. I didn't face any thunderers or quarrelers but I would imagine that they would be a little worse at combat and put out a little more damage. We need magic missiles to do our 'long range' stuff which makes light a very powerful lore. Death would have also been good. I just liked that light has low casting costs.

It was a little 3 round tournament at my FLGS and the rippers were amazing every game. Their performance against the crew was not indicative of their performance over the rest of the tournament. I think 4 is the right size for them. Awesome sauce.