8th Ed. Lizardmen vs. NEW Warriors of Chaos (2400)

[Anubris]

Hey guys, so here's my first ''big'' report. I already played a match against my brother at 1000 points (pre-WoC update) which was a complete massacre. This was a long, drawn out fight which resulted in a DRAW. I am quite happy with the result (given my experience) itself, but I want to share my experience about this fight (since the new WoC are a tough nut to crack and Scalenex has even written a tactica about them!).

The lists

LIZARDMEN

Lords (485)

-Slann mage-priest, General, BSB, The Focused Rumination, Focus of mystery (Light), The Becalming Cogitation, Cupped hands of the old ones, Huanchi’s blessed totem, Bane head (485)

Heroes (555)

-Skink priest, Engine of the gods, Dispel scroll, Opal amulet (395)
-Saurus Scar-Veteran, Cold one, Light armour, Burning blade of chotec, charmed shield, dawnstone (160)

Core (637)

-31 saurus warriors, full command (371)
-10 skink skirmishers (70)
-10 skink skirmishers (70)
-10 skink skirmishers (70)
-10 skinks, musician (56)

Special (640)

-6 Chameleon skinks (72)
-6 Chameleon skinks (72)
-26 Temple Guard, full command, Razor standard (496)

Rare (80)
-Salamander hunting pack, additional handler (80)

2397

WARRIORS OF CHAOS (roughly, I do not own his list)

LORDS
-Deamon prince, lv 4 wizard (DEATH), mark of nurgle, scaly skin, chaos armour, fly, dragonbane gem, sword of striking (basically the most annoying DP you can imagine).

HEROES
-Exalted hero, BSB, disc of tzeench, sick ward save and he may reroll the result of 1 (talisman of preservation + third eye of tzeench I think), not sure about weapon.

CORE
-2x 5 marauder horsemen with throwing axes, mark of slaanesh (he wanted to try out throwing axes)
-10 chaos warhounds
-3 chaos chariots (all mark of khorne)

SPECIAL
-1 chimera with breath weapon
-2 gorebeast chariots

RARE
-3 skullcrushers of khorne
-1 hellcannon

DEPLOYMENT

The table we were playing on did now allow you to stack a lot of units in front of each other, so I could not deploy some kind of castle formation.

On the left side of the table, he put all his chaff units (warhounds, marauder horsemen) and he hid his chimera and demon prince behind impassable terrain. In the centre he put ALL of his chariots. On the far right side he put the skullcrushers, hellcannon and exalted hero.

My deployment (from left to right) Salamander, skink skirmishers, scar-vet (a.k.a. Rambo), saurus warriors, skink skirmishers, temple guard, skink skirmishers, EoTG (behind impassable terrain to hide from his hellcannon), skink cohort. Both my chamo skinks were placed near his chaff units (one inside a forest which turned out to be a dangerous forest that multiplies wounds when you shoot a missile at it)

The Battle

I got the first turn (I finished deploying so I got a +1 on the roll)

TURN 1 LM

Movement: I move all my chaff forward to shoot down his chaff, the scar vet stands behind a unit of chamo's out of charge arc of the chariots. I shuffle the saurus and TG forward a bit. The stegadon moves forward to cast iceshard blizzard on the hellcannon. Skinks also move forward.
Magic phase: this is where we messed up with the rules..I rolled 1 + 2 for shem's burning gaze and we assumed it was a lost concentration. In the end it didn't turn out that way. Anyway, we thought my slann could no longer cast spells. So I casted iceshard blizz. with some remaining dice and it got dispelled. I did turn on the 5+ ward save.
Shooting: I fire with salamander on both his marauder horsemen (they stood behind each other), killing 4 or 5. One chamo unit shoots at his horsemen and the other one shoots the dogs. No panic test or they were passed (can't remember, anyway those marauder units are immune to panic tests due to slaanesh mark).

TURN 1 WoC

Movement: He declares charge against chamo skinks in forest with his hounds; I flee. He redirects his charge at the chamo skinks in front of Rambo. The chamo skinks flee away (they end up fleeing through the skink skirmisher unit nearby) and the doggies are face to face with rambo in mortal combat!
He tries to charge my salamander with his marauder unit, I flee. His chimera remains behind impassable terrain, the demon prince flies over to the battle field. The chariots move forward, the skullcrushers move forward (near the impassable terrain my EoTG was hiding behind). Exalted hero moves towards the skink
cohort.
Magic: He is within 24 inch for becalming cogitation. He casts purple sun, I dispel it. He casts a -1 STR and -1 toughness spell on my scar-vet.
Shooting: He tries to fire his hellcannon, it scatter away or only 1/2 TG die (not sure).
Combat: Rambo kills 2 hounds, he gains no wains. They remain static.

TURN 2 LM

Movement: Chamo skinks / salamander try to rally. I believe only 1 chamo skink unit manages to reform. I realized that I had to take drastic measures to prevent his skullcrushers and chariots from messing me up. I moved 1 unit of skink skirmishers just in front of the skullcrushers, in a way that overrun would place them directly in front of the TG and stegadon for a combined charge. I put 2 other skink skirmishers in front of his chariots (don't think I should have done this, it didn't have much effect). Stegadon moves forward to get ready for a nice charge. TG move backwards a bit to discourage a charge by his chariots. Saurus shuffle back a bit too.
Magic: I manage to get pha's protection and birona's timewarp on my TG unit. I cast speed of light on rambo. Some other stuff (Net of amyntok on skullcrushers) gets dispelled. I manage to cause 1 wound on skullcrushers with shem's or banishment. Iceshard doesn't happen or gets dispelled.
Shooting: not much happens. I manage to cause 1 wound on a chariot thats it. (many shooting units are fleeing).
Combat: Rambo manages to win combat (despite -1 str and -1 toughness, he got ws 10 and i 10) and overruns just in front of his chimera. I wasn't sure this was the right thing to do, but I had fought his chimera before and I knew a scar-vet with burning blade is scary ^^

TURN 2 WoC

Movement: Chimera charges rambo, skullcrushers charge skinks, exalted hero charges skink cohort (they cause a wound in stand and shoot!!!), chariots charge skink chaff. I am not sure about his demon prince but I think he moved up close to my TG to snipe my slann or he did so while fighting my saurus block (flank charge).
Magic: he manages to cause 2 wounds on my slann (caress of laniph)***
Shooting: he fires hellcannon, it scatter away.
Combat: Rambo fails his fear test, but still manages to cause 2 wounds. Chimera holds. All the chaff units are wiped out -> skullcrushers are ready to be wiped out, his chariots on the left side are ready to kill my saurus. I believe the skink cohort also dies to his exalted hero.

TURN 3 LM.

Movement: Chaff units try to reform, some reform some flee.I flank charge my steg into his skullcrushers and front-charge my TG into the skullcrushers (timewarp + huanchi's totem). I aim for total wipeout!
Magic: I manage to get most important spells off on my TG unit (I think pha's + Timewarp + Speed of light). I activate burning alignment and cause 4 wounds on skullcrushers.
Shooting: Not much happens, maybe some reformed chamo skinks kill a marauder horseguy.
Combat: Rambo passes his fear test, wins comat and overruns the chimera, no wounds on himself! The skullcrushers are utterly wiped out (7 impact hits and lots of TG hitting him). I roll 11 on my overrun with EoTG and charge into one of his gorebeast chariots! The temple guard reform to get ready for a charge of 1 or 2 chariots.

TURN 3 WoC

Movement: At this point his demon prince and 1/2 chariots are fighting with my saurus block. He charges 1 chariots (front) and his exalted hero (rear) into my TG unit.
Magic: not much happens.
Shooting: not much.
Combat: The saurus hold and cause maybe 1 or 2 wounds on one of his chariots (I am steadfast). TG unit: his exalted hero takes no wounds, his chariots takes a few wounds, I lose maybe 3 or 4 TG. I don't manage to kill his chariot with my EoTG. Skink priest takes 1 wound.

TURN 4 LM
Rambo moves around the impassable terrain (left side) to the centre of the battle field, ready to pick off on any fleeing chariots! Chaff mess around a bit.
Magic: more buffs for my TG unit. I roll irresistible force on timewarp. The result is bad (power drain), so I activate cupped hands. We get into an argument about LOS. Referee (oldest brother) agrees with me, but the argument is unending and the effect is NOT bounced up to his deamon prince. Burning alignment hits 3 enemy units but causes 0 wounds
Shooting: chaff vs chaff.
Combat: I manage to win combat on the steg, but the skink priest dies. I do not pursue the fleeing gorebeast chariot and reform. The TG kill his exalted hero and his chariot dies. I am not sure but I think I manage to overrun into a second chariot with the TG. I believe my Saurus warriors remain with only the command group and roll insane courage!

TURN 4 WoC
Movement: not much (combat is all around us). Maybe he charges his horsemen into a chamo skink unit (stand and shoot) Fleeing gorebeast chariot manages to reform.
Shooting: not much
Magic: not much
Combat: Saurus unit is dead (logically). 2 chariots overrun off the board. His demon prince reforms. TG win combat against chariot, it flees (I hold so my steg can crush it next turn).

TURN 5 LM
Movement: Rambo scarges fleeing gorebeast chariots. Steg charges other fleeing chariot. TG get ready for his next 2 chariots that get back next turn. **** (critical mistake) ****
Magic: another irresistible force on timewarp (3 dices)... I kill 8-10 TG and lose 6 power dice
Shooting: not much
Combat: scar vet and steg are both victorious, 2 dead chariots.

TURN 5 WoC
Movement: his chariots are back in play and face my TG. His demon prince flies behind my TG unit to cast snipe spells.
Magic: He manages to get off another snipe spell but it causes no wounds (thank god).
Shooting: hellcannon misses.
Combat: some chaff crap.

TURN 6 LM
Movement: TG unit make a heroic charge on the chariot (they had timewarp) and make it.
Magic: buffs on TG unit
Shooting: nothing important
Combat: I win combat against the chariot and overrun into the chariot which is only 1 inch away from the first.

TURN 6 WoC
Movement: He charges his Demon Prince into the back of my TG unit (The Slann is exposed, there are only 14 TG left).
He kills the Slann and I kill his chariot.

RESULT: DRAW

That's it for the ''battle'' itself. I have quite some questions for the more experienced LM players about this but I will make a new post for it

 

[Anubris]

Ok so some questions I have in the aftermath of this fight:

-Is it true that I donnot get a LOS for the ''single target'' spells of lore of death? (spirit leech, caress of laniph for example). We didn't allow LOS this game.

-If the above is true, how do I defend myself against this? I had the becalming cogitation but despite this he manages to threaten my slann in magic phase several times. Does divine plaque of protection work against this sort of spell? Or should I take magic resistance discipline on my slann? I thought taking 4 disciplines would be over the top but I must say I am slightly disappointed in becalming cogitation. My opponent could easily roll 5 dice for a spell without worrying about IF. Then again, I don't know if I WANT him to cast IF purple sun of xereus on my TG or Saurus unit (I know we can counter this with initiative 10, but he can dispel too..)

-If I only have 14 temple guard left, is my slann exposed to attacks from the rear? Doesn't it seem a little odd that the Temple guard would not take his back too? As they are there to ''protect'' him?

- Does a Stegadon get to pivot around freely? I wanted to deploy him horizontally to ''win'' movement but my opponent said that this doesn't work for stegadon but does work for chimera (because its flying). I am unsure about this myself.

-If I activate burning alignment in my own magic phase, does it also ''trigger'' in the opponents magic phase? This was not clearly stated in Lizardmen FAQ so we decided it only works in LM magic phase. But it would be pretty cool if it works in enemy magic phase too xD

-Should I have gone for his hellcannon? I could have deployed 1 or 2 chamo skinks nearby but would have have been a better strategy?

-How do I deploy my chaff units against his chaff units without fleeing with 5 units on his first round?

-How do you prioritize casting with lore of Light. I took my priority with timewarp, speed of light and pha's protection. Banishment/Shem's burning gaze didn't give me much results this game, mainly becuase he hid his chimera. I casted banishment once on his deamon prince (and used bane head on his DP at start of the game) but no wounds were caused so I was slightly disappointed. Also I would not count on banishment working too great on his DP in any case, since he will try to fly around your TG block to avoid LOS.
Should I cast net of amyntok on his skullcrushers? I tried once but he freaked out and dispelled. I could also cast it on the hellcannon but afaik a hellcannon DOES have strenght unlike most cannons.

- When do you use the bubble versions of lore of light? I didn't cast a single one and yet I still managed to get 2 irresistible forces. I really like the lore but blowing up 8-10 TG without even casting a bubble spell sounds rediculous. I could give the slann magic resistance, transfering it to the TG. Would that work against irresistible force explosions?

Overall, I am really impressed with the Lore of Light combined with a TG block. Especially when you give the temple guard armour piercing banner. But I think I did mess up somewhere on casting

 

[skillfull_dan]

-Is it true that I donnot get a LOS for the ''single target'' spells of lore of death? (spirit leech, caress of laniph for example). We didn't allow LOS this game.

Thats how i play

If the above is true, how do I defend myself against this?

Slann has a 4+ ward save, thats a pretty good start. Besides that, becalming cogitation will make him fail to cast sometimes, and magic resistance 2 would give you a 2+ ward save against it. If you really get sick of it, just take death magic yourself with bane head and give him a double dose of his own medicine.

-If I only have 14 temple guard left, is my slann exposed to attacks from the rear?

Depending on how wide the unit is deployed, yes he is exposed. This is the common way for opponents to deal with our temple guard. No real way to counter this besides not letting your opponent get a back charge ( I know, this is easier said than done, and will probably be your opponents focus)

- Does a Stegadon get to pivot around freely? I wanted to deploy him horizontally to ''win'' movement but my opponent said that this doesn't work for stegadon but does work for chimera

It works for the stegadon, he is a single model and gets unlimited free reforms. Your opponent sounds like a jerk.

-If I activate burning alignment in my own magic phase, does it also ''trigger'' in the opponents magic phase?

No

-Should I have gone for his hellcannon?

I did the math once, It takes something like 20+ poison WOUNDS by skinks to actually make it past all three of his saves and kill him.

-How do I deploy my chaff units against his chaff units without fleeing with 5 units on his first round?

Force him into difficult charges, dont march your full distance forward, and the stand and shoot happens even if he fails the charge.

-hellcannon DOES have strenght unlike most cannons.

Correct, it is a monster and not a warmachine, so Net doesnt automatically work.

- When do you use the bubble versions of lore of light? I didn't cast a single one and yet I still managed to get 2 irresistible forces. I really like the lore but blowing up 8-10 TG without even casting a bubble spell sounds rediculous. I could give the slann magic resistance, transfering it to the TG. Would that work against irresistible force explosions?

Bad luck man, just bad luck.

I dont think MR works against IF explosions, but I'm not sure actually. I dont have a book in front of me.

 

[Ferocious]

if your tg champ was still alive, you could have challanged the daemon prince =)

good report!

 

[Anubris]

if your tg champ was still alive, you could have challanged the daemon prince =)

good report!

Damn! Why didn't I think of that?!?! I could issue a challenge with the TG champ, he could only respond with DP (chariot doesn't count as a champ I suppose). I guess it's my own fault; my own units had initiative 10 or ASF... I just killed the chariot and attacked the DP with models in base contact. I didn't realize he could direct all his attacks to the Slann untill he actually did. Next time I will remember to challenge his DP if my Slann is in danger

 

[Qupakoco]

Good report! I think the stuff skillfull_dan said is spot on.

With your Engine, the effect that reduces casting costs is sometimes the best one to use in the first turn against non-shooting armies. Especially if you pick the lore your Slann has. Couple that with a lvl 4 caster and Rumination, you can easily toss out one power die on some of the cheaper spells. (not including the die from Rumination) The 5+ ward is nice but not always practical.

Magic: more buffs for my TG unit. I roll irresistible force on timewarp. The result is bad (power drain), so I activate cupped hands. We get into an argument about LOS. Referee (oldest brother) agrees with me, but the argument is unending and the effect is NOT bounced up to his deamon prince.

Look Out Sir or Line of Sight?

 

[Anubris]

Look Out Sir or Line of Sight?

Line of Sight. The discussion was whether the Slann was able to ''see'' the deamon prince to take advantage of the effect of Cupped hands. We didn't know whether line of sight = arc of sight, but we assumed it was quite close to each other. Drawing a line from arc of sight, it touched the base of the daemon prince. The DP was in combat, but counts as a large target and the Slann also counts as a large target when casting spells. So there was reason to believe that the item should work.

However the discussion was endless... we ended up not using the effect (so only the miscast was ignored, I didn't roll 1 luckily, and the other effect was not applied).

So far the comments are awesome. I might try The arcane configuration next time --> should help with bubble spells too I suppose. Also, obsidian amulet or divine plaque of protection might be worth a shot. I still don't know if divine plaque of protection works on magic casted by your opponent. Does anyone know?

The obsidian amulet will also transfer MR to the temple guard unit --> does anyone find this usefull or is it just fluff? I mean purple sun or pit of shades doesn't allow magic resistance and these spells seem to be the most effective means of killing a TG unit (unless you got i10 buff )

 

[skillfull_dan]

I used to make that same mistake until someone pointed out that Line of Sight is defined in like the first chapter of the rulebook. I dont have it in front of me, but look it up "Line of Sight" in the glossary to find the page.

Basically, line of sight is NOT drawn from the front arc. It is drawn as the models actual line of sight. So if you put a laser pointer next to his head, would you be able to draw a bead on the model in question. I always feel like this rule is out of place with all the other warhammer rules, but thats what it is.

 

[Anubris]

So line of sight is a larger angle than frontal arc? Or is it smaller?

 

[skillfull_dan]

Line of sight is much larger than front arc. Although it is blocked by terrain and other models.

Again, I dont particularily like the rule, but the way it reads is to put a laser pointer next to the eye of the in question and make a line to the other model.