8th Ed. Ludacris Swarm Horde!!!

Has anyone ever thought about the possible up and downs of a horde of swarms? In my craziness I am actually liking the crazy idea of the most unorthodox tar pit. Just your thoughts tactically like how to build the rest of the army around it and whether it may just be a big waste of time. Thanks

 

they do not have the "monstrous ranks" special rule, and thus would fill up ½ the table as they're skirmish as well. the unit assuming a normal horde of 40 models would cost 1400 pts, and thus only be eligible in very large games, and take away your special selection.

It would have 200 wounds, and equal pts worth of skinks would have 280 wounds (assuming no poison) and would suffer less leadership, higher str, same toughness, less WS and less attacks from the first ranks with no poison, but would be more survivable having a 5+ save, and a 6+ ward where swarms just die, and take wounds based on lost whether it lost combat, skinks would likely be steadfast and need a save to take no further casualties.

I'm not sure Skinks win out here, but if we start doing them in units of 40 models, and consider they're core, we're speaking fluid lizard-fu, way better bang for the buck, and less cumbersome as well.

Might look fun, probably won't do well with the swarms

 

I agree that a swarm horde is likely not worth the points. I'm going to play Devil's advocate and see if I can make it work though.

First off, a horde only needs to be 30 models (not 40 - we naturally think 40 because of spears I think). Secondly, it can be supported by Bastiladons with Arks and Tehenhauin. This makes the unit properly Unbreakable, and gives him Ld10. If you take him as your general, that gives you Ld 10 coldblooded inspiring presence.

To get the full 3 Bastiladons, you'd need to run a 3000 point list, because that's the minimum size to fit 30 swarms and 3 Bastiladons - ironically 3,000 points puts you into Grand Army so you could actually take 6 Bastiladons but you don't have the points. The arks would give you on average 9 extra bases of swarms over the course of the battle, assuming no Bastiladon casualties.

The unit will be approximately 20" wide x 6" deep, so you could actually put a large chunk of the rest of your army behind it, knowing that they won't be taking any panic tests You'll probably want to put some Saurus on the flank that Tehenhauin is on, for 4+ LoS, and the Bastiladons on the other flank and/or behind. For the rest of the list, you still have enough points in Lord to get a fully kitted out Slann, although then the Slann would be your general and not Tehenhauin. Life Magic is one possibility, granting your 150 wound unbreakable unit Regeneration and Toughness boosts.

Mathhammer time!

Let's take a look at one of the units that churn out huge numbers of attacks and are prevalent in the meta - the horde of Ogre Bulls. 18 bulls will generate 6 impact hits, 54 attacks and 6 stomps on the unit. On average that will be 32.5 wounds (or 27.5 if they didn't charge) losing 6 bases. In return you'll do 56 attacks back, which will result in 6 wounds after saves. You'll lose by a gazillion, but sit there Unbreakable. Your opponent will combat reform to ensure he is in base to base contact with Tehenhauin. Next turn Tehenhauin will likely take 3 wounds from 18 attacks and die. However, there is a slim chance that he will kill one of the Ogres in base contact first and survive. Either way, your unit is then suffering only 32 attacks from the Ogres which will result in 17 total wounds. In return you'll do 50 attacks back, which will result in 5 wounds after saves. If Tehenhauin is dead, then you're going lose another 8 wounds, for a total of 21 - 4 more bases gone. You can see that in this war of attrition the swarm is going to lose. You then need to be combo charging with your bastiladons to even up the odds, but bear in mind you're committing 50% of your forces to a single combat that you're still likely to lose.

Having gone through this thought exercise, I think the thing that prevents this from really working is the lack of supporting attacks. If the second and third ranks got full attacks, the story wouldn't be too different: 120 attacks back would turn into 20 wounds after saves, which still sucks but sucks less, and might give you the edge. You're still tying up > 1000 points taking out a unit that is worth roughly half the cost.

Want to try a really crazy alternative horde? Go with Ripperdactyls ;-)
~gwh

 

Do the swarms have to be 10 wide to be a horde? aren't they on the same size bases as the ogres and only need 9+ to be a horde?

 

They don't have the Monstrous ranks rule, which is the important thing, not the base size.

And i meant 40 because you don't want to lose attacks from the get-go, then again, 5 wound models might not need a normal horde size.

 

oh hehe i guess that rule is important. well then i guess i was getting ahead of myself. what about larger units of 6+ then? since they are unbreakable they really shouldn't care about ranks and just use the extra bases for meat shield. I think these would be great against elves because they can tarpit until something better hits the flanks. What say you oh wise ones?

 

Well if you just want them to hold stuff....
run them 1 wide and 3+ deep.
that way they don't get as many attacks back.

 

So conga line is the best way to speed bump with these guys then? I guess that makes sense since they would be unwieldy to maneuver in wide formations.

 

Several problems with this.
1) You only get 1 supporting attack per swarm.
350 points gets you 10 wide and 50 poison attacks.
The next 700 points only brings you 20 more attacks. It's a waste of points for hitting power.

2) Being 10 wide, lots of enemy units can rank up on you, and you'll crumble fast.

3) Tiny Weenie makes them unbreakable, but has to go in the front rank, and other characters cannot join the unit to help keep him alive. Since he's in the unit and he's a different unit type, he doesn't get a look out sir. What's worse, the 4+ look out roll only applies if you are on your own, you don't get that either since you're in a unit. Finally, you don't get Ld10 inspiring presence. His unbreakable unit would test at Ld10 if they needed to test for some reason; but he's still LD8. So he gives LD8 and his unit tests at 10.

If Swarms supported with 3 attacks (or 5 attacks), then it might be viable. You'd get enough offense to matter, but with only 7 attacks per 40mm of frontage, you're pretty much worse off then a skink horde; (who throws out 6 attacks + 4 stand and fire shots over the same frontage).

 

Are our swarms unstable? is that why combat res hurts? I just thought they were unbreakable? I guess I need to look up the entry in the BRB. Okham's would be crazy on them! "Oh, you have a sphinx? Well I have swarms... WITH STRENGTH 10!!! Hahahahah..."

 

Swarms have the Squish! rule which is basically Unstable.