7th Ed. Need some help vs. Warriors of Chaos - 500pts

As the subject states, I am battling a Warriors of Chaos player in a 500 point game. This is using normal rules, no Warband rules. I played him once with a fairly balanced list (I didnt know who my opponent would be) and died horribly. The issue: I could never penetrate his Armor Saves.

He runs the same list every time. 2 blocks of 10 Chaos Warriors w/ Shields and full command. One of the units includes his lvl 2 Chaos Sorcerer w/ Mark of Tzeentch and Book of Secrets (and I assume a magic shield although I havent discovered it yet).

So every model has armor save of 2+, Toughness 4 and 2 Attacks +1 per Champion.

Chaos Sorcerer has 2 spells (he usually chooses one from Fire and ends up with Fireball and one from Tzeentch which is usually Flickering Fires). Total of 4 Power Dice to play with. Each cast he gets +1 to the casting attempt (Mark of Tzeentch).

My 20 Saurus Warriors (Spear in units of 10) managed to kill *two* Chaos Warriors during the battle. I managed 5 more kills from Skink Skirmishers but for the most part their attacks just bounced off the Armor Save (3+ from Ranged).



So, I've been trying to think of a counter list. Like I said originally, I brought a very balanced list to fight and his army walked all over them. Magic is too potent and most importantly the armor saves prevented almost any damage.

Here is a possible response list. Ideas and criticisms please!



The idea is to get *something* to clear that Armor Save. In a higher point I'd go for magic. In this low point, Lore of Heavens isnt going to help and he already has a fairly potent caster coming back at me.

So, enter the Scar Vet with Blade of Chotec (bye bye Champions and Sorcerer since WoC must challenge each turn) and the 2 Kroxigor giving 6 Strength 6 attacks. The Mirrored Shield is very critical to prevent the magic missiles he always takes, effectively rendering his Sorcerer null once he realizes everything is going to backfire.

Scar Vet will be in the Saurus Warrior unit giving it a 6 front 2 rank setup. The idea is to use them for a charge or to accept a charge and drag the units of Chaos Warriors out of the movement game.

Skink/Krogi unit will be 5 wide and built very specifically for flanking. Chaos Warriors are a very limited 4 Move and I found my Skinks last game to be running circles around him.

The flaws: I only have 2 units! This makes me nervous. The problem is that nothing else we can take will break through that Armor Save. I tried fitting a unit of Kroxigors in, but that required 3rd Kroxigor kept breaking the bank.

Should I pull that Scar Vet out of the unit and have him free roaming? With forced Challenges he will be able to meet the Sorcerer's unit for at least 2 rounds (one for Champ one for Sorc). I decided to put him in the unit because Mirrored Shield is really the only defense against those Magic Missiles.

Input is very welcome and if you have an alternate list, let me know! I dont feel terribly comfortable with this list and would be willing to change if someone else had a better suggestion.

 

First how does heavy armour and shield give you a 3+? second I would make the skinks skirmishers, that way you can move about and shoot at him until he is dead because of high maneouverability.

 

chaos armour gives +3 (not +2), then shield adds another +1 (then another +1 for hw in combat) for 3+ for shooting and 2+ in combat!

 

I had 2 units of skink skirmishers before and killed 5 Chaos Warriors via ranged. It simply isnt good enough against the armor saves.

 

The scar vet will be great, chotec chops through armour no problem. The saurus should be good as chaos warriors are only marginally better than them, and saurus can grind and hold in time for you to flank. Try not to charge with your saurus but rather force them to charge you head-on. I predict that the skrox unit will be AWFUL. I am no fan of such a large skrox unit (though I do like 11 skinks 1 krox in bigger games) and though it may have some ability against marauders chaos warriors will TEAR through those skinks with their two attacks and the krox won't kill enough to compensate. The point of skinks in a game like this is to position your enemy so that you control the fights. So what if 50 points of skinks die or flee from the warriors if it means that the next turn you get a flank charge on them with something strong. Do not expect the skinks to kill anything, that is not their point (unless the enemy is armourless or a large target or both), but rather use them to dominate movement.

Off the top of my head I suggest a list like this:
Scar vet, cold one, light armour, chotec, mirrored shield - 160 (ps your scar vet cost is 5 points off)
3 krox or 5 cold one riders + standard - 165 or 195
2 or 3 small units of ranked skinks (with musicians if possible) (ie 3x10 skinks + mus or 2x13 skinks + mus - 168 or 142)
- - - - - - - - - -
493(put an extra skink in a unit) or 497

I'd go for the cold ones over the krox but you seem to have the models for kroxigor and they are good can openers with S6 anyway (and won't go stupid 10% of the time).
Run the scar vet outside of a unit and keep him in view of a wizard with a magic missile. use the skinks to position the enemy to ensure you get a flank charge with the heavy unit. Your safest bet is to focus your hero and strong unit on one unit first, then the next later (who was hopefully kept occupied by some skinks) otherwise your scar vet could charge into some warriors who are fighting skinks, kill a sorcerer in a challenge nicely, then be broken by CR as the warriors slaughter loads of skinks. Better to be sure of crushing one unit completely, especially as he only has two units.

 

Chaos armor does not give a 3+ armor save.

By deduction, 4+ with armor, 3+ when you add a sheild, 2+ with HW/SH Bonus.

I can't understand why we have so many conflicting chaos armor numbers in the same thread.

Seriously?

With all due respect that is the worst idea I've ever heard. If you equip the general with SotMP and then run him out by himself, all your doing is buying protection for the character while your sarus and kroxigors get blasted by at least one spell each round. I can't think of a single reason to do this and honestly think that it's quite bad advice.


I would strongly recommend not fielding the units of skinks and Kroxigors mixed. Your skinks will do far better if they are skirmishers. While targetting warriors of chaos with darts isn't the best choice because of their armor, if you have nothing else to shoot at, fire away. Hope your opponent rolls some 1s and 2s on armor saves.

You'll find it difficult to beat a ranked up unit of warriors head on, so you'll have to employ slightly more devious tactics. Enter, avil and hammer tactics. When you use these tactics remember that you don't need to penetrate his armor saves. You want to destroy his ranked units via combat resolution. Here's what I would do.

General:
I'd definitely use a Scar Veteran, although I don't think that I'd kit him out the same way as everyone else. Remember, sinking a lot of points into your general takes away from your effectiveness on the battlefield with normal and support troops. A Scar Veteran is going to slice through an enemy's armor saves with or without a magic weapon so I'd suggest forgoing BBoC all together. Give him a great weapon and for 5 points you get your additional -2AS that a 20 point blade would get you. Consider this, you will be striking last, but as you're planning to accept a charge anyways, who cares, issue a challenge and lay a beat down on what ever you have in front of you.

Here's the difference:
BBoC: 20pts -2AS
At STR5 with the -2AS bonus you'll leave him w/ a 6+ save with normal rank and file.
Starting @ 2+
+2 for STR5 = 4+
+2 for BBoC = 6+

Great Weapon: 6pts +2STR
At STR7 you Scar Vet attacks with the same armor penetration as before leaving the WoC with a piddly 6+ save, and you save 15 points in the process.
Starting @ 2+
+4 for STR7 = 6+

Remember that your plan is to lure one unit into charging so you can deal with one at a time (preferably the socerer unit first). This means you need to make it painfully obvious that you're within charge range. Because he's won a few games against you, he'll be cocky most likely and charge. Expect to take a charge, and strike last anyways. Who cares if you have a great weapon. Now you just saved 15 points buying you an extra sarus for your anvil and allowing your general to pretty much do the same thing. Giving him Shield of the Mirrored Pool isn't a bad idea since your sarus unit will be big and bad, but I think you can get away with out it because you'll not take excessive casualties if you save your two dice for his nastiest spell and try and burn it. Plus remember if you take the sheild that automatically makes him want to target the Kroxigors (your hammer) with his magic anyways.

Scar Veteran:
Great Weapon
91pts

Remember, this guy is very fragil (5+ armor save) so keeping him in a challenge during CC is ideal, so none of the WoC and sink their weapons into his meaty flesh. He should have any trouble with a unit champion or the chaos wizard though. You'll need a little luck as well, to avoid getting killed, but your general's role is to make provide a little extra punch for the warrior unit, and with there being no leadership difference, you haven't lost the game if he kills the general.

The remaining elements of your army should be a unit of Kroxigors and as many skink skirmishers as you can fit. Try and bring 15 Sarus with full command armed with HW/SH. Sure you can try spears, but that just means that the WoC will carve you up more every round. You want your warriors to last, and the extra casualties from spears will be guarunteed because you have higher SCR than his units do.


Kroxigor vs. COR:
At this points value, I'm inclined to go with Kroxigors all the way for the following reasons.

1) You'll need what ever hammer unit you decide to take to be guarunteed a charge on the unit you're fighting's flank. You don't want a flubbed stupidity roll on the turn your charge and have to ask your warriors to hold out for an extra round. This will buy time for him to get his other unit into combat and that's a game looser at this point value. Kroxigors are never stupid, so they're an excellent choice.

2) COR will definitely maximize your attacks over a small 50mm flank frontage allowing you to get 12 attacks in, leaving only 1 rider out. But two Kroxigor who do get into combat will have 6 combined wounds to eliminate all attacks if you happen to stick. Consider this, if you flub all of your attack rolls leaving him 2 warriors on the flank to strike back, you're facing 4 attacks. If he does 2 wounds, you've lost 2 COR and half of your attacks. Three wounds is even worse for COR. If your unit of Kroxigors takes two wounds, they are no models removed from the unit and you're still looking at 6x STR6 attacks.

I honestly think that either unit can get the job done, but a unit of Kroxigors will cost you 10 less points than a unit of COR (naked). Remember, scrimp and pinch the points, thats 10 more points somewhere else!


Here's the list I would use:

General:
Scar Veteran
GW
91pts


Core:
14x Sarus Warrios
Standard/Musician
172pts

10x Skink Skirmishers
70pts


Special:
3x Kroxigor
165pts

-------------------

Your goals are to make sure you deal with one unit of warriors at a time. Use your skinks to phsyically get in the way and draw a charge on the 2nd unit so they're out of the way when you go in against his big unit. Bring the Kroxigors in on the flank provided your sarus hold (which they should). If you can manage a charge on the unit with the general with your warrior unit, do so. Your SV's survivability goes way up by doing that. Accepting a charge isn't bad, as long as you have your flank set up and his other unit dealt with.

Let me know if you have any questions and I am looking forward to hearing how it all turns out, no matter what you try.

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Ah but I did not say 3+, you did not read the difference between +3 and 4+, they are the same thing. The books use this notation also (eg -1 armour modifiers etc). ie chaos armour adds 3 points of armour, giving a 4+ roll if that is the final total armour.

Make sure you're right next time before resolving with incredulity ^^

This reminds me distinctly of an extract from Book 6:

"I don't mean to be rude," [Uncle Vernon] began in a tone that threatened rudeness in every syllable.
"-- yet, sadly, accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often," Dumbledore finished the sentence gravely.

I agree that krox would be better in a game this size, bartok makes a good point (I just think COR by default because I loooove my paint job on them, wasn't thinking). I personally would rather spend the points on a chotec cold one scar vet than a GW saurus with no real save. On one hand you have a hero than can reliably destroy his mages or slice through rank and file chaos warriors. On the other you have one that still runs a sizable risk of dieing in a challenge and cannot reliably take on rank and file as three models with two attacks have a decent chance of killing him considering he strikes last and has paltry AS. You either spend 18.2% of your points for something unreliable or 32% of your points on something wholly reliable (consider it this way - from being as reliable as a beefed champion to being almost as reliable as another small cc unit for 69* points).

*SV with GW costs 91, not 90 points.

As for running the hero solo, I don't think it matters greatly either way. Skinks don't matter as long as they can still be a pain for the enemy's movement. If your run your SV with the krox they suffer from stupidity (the main reason to take them over COR is stupidity) but are protected from magic missiles. If you run your SV solo but in tandem with the krox your enemy will almost certainly target the hero first (hit a 160 point model with 2 wounds or some 55 point models with 3 wounds?) and then the krox after, but they are both very hardy and, if you have 3 units of skinks as I suggest, can be shielded by the skinks you will be using to pin down the enemy.

With 3 units of skinks, 3krox and a SV on CO you will be able to control combat and your SV and krox on a combined charge should easily crush a warrior unit while a couple of units of skinks keep the other one occupied. This list is protected against his magic missiles, which you seem to make clear is half of the problem. Bartok's path is just as vulnerable to magic as your original list while being roughly as combat efficient as mine.

Of course deal with the sorcerer unit first, as bartok suggested.

 

Checking over my numbers, I put the Burning Blade in as 25pts instead of 20pts. Thanks for the catch! Every bit counts in 500 pt games.

While this would net me a unit of 10 Skinks (removing Burning Blade and Mirrored Shield) it also means I will be losing a lot more troops to deaths. No protection against the magic missiles and the Scar Vet with only a 3+ Armor Save (4+ when you take into account the enemy Strength 4). That leaves me just too exposed for comfort. Really good idea though, I hadnt though about the cheap and effective Great Weapon option.


Barotok and Dumbledore, you guys have given me a ton of great advice and lots to think about.

I felt very uncomfortable with the Skink/Kroxi group and you folks have managed to talk me out of it. Too risky. I took it originally because I couldnt squeeze in a unit of 3 Kroxigor. And our Core troops are just not good enough to kill any of the Chaos Warriors.



I am leaning toward the bottom list. The approach would be to run the Scar Vet straight toward the Sorcerer group, giving me a charge on turn 2 and wiping out either his Champion or his Sorcerer (whoever he accepted the Challenge with). He is sure to take a shot at the Scar Vet with his magic, but Mirrored Shield will return the favor (although with 3+ Armor Save it may not do much to him). The second shot he will most likely send towards another unit, but I will attempt to dispel (hard to do, he gets a +1 on casting attempts). This should give me enough time for all my Movement 6 units to get in position. Kroxigors for the flank and Skinks for the block/charge redirection.

The first list is more straight forward. Scar Vet with the Saurus giving them Outnumber along with character killing and protection from the magic. Kroxigors are going to need to make a very wide circle in order to avoid that magic and set themselves up for a flank. The little Skink unit is to block/charge redirect the second unit of Chaos Warriors until I can deal with it.

Thoughts? Is the strategy sound? Am I missing something?

Also (and this is just a side note) which army do you think would be better as a 'general 500pt' list?

 

Dumbledore:

What part of my statement about Chaos armor is wrong? The fact that you moved the + from one side to the other on the number is correct and I won't deny that you are correct in your reasoning as well (just different way of reasoning it out). So forgive my incredultiy for misreading your post. I fail to see how I am wrong though since AS are typically counted out in the way that I referred to it (I'd also be the first to admit that having Chaos Amor would give 3pts of armor, much easier to understand).

Pardon my error on the SV as well. The great weapon is 6 points, not 5.

How is this relavant? If you percieve my comment as being rude, then I apologize. I will share my opinion on this board, and if I see/read something that doesn't look like solid advice to me, I may choose to say something.

The specific reason I disagree are as follows:
1) Running the SV outside of a with the shield grants no magic protection for the R/F troops that he is trying to protect.
2) While being outside the unit the SV has more manueverability, ultimately breaking those two warrior units is going to be about combat resolution, so there really isn't a good reason to run him loose.
3) If you're looking at character assasination, getting the SV in charge range will likely mean that the unit of warriors is in charge range as well (considering what a small game it is). Seems to me like sticking him in the unit will be the best bet since they'll all be getting into combat about the same time.


Snow:
It looks like you've got a couple of lists there that have some good thought and strategy put into them. I think that you'll have a good chance of winning with either provided that you use the units for what you intended in the first place. I think I'd tend to lean towards the first list, given it keeps the sarus warriors running around on the table, and those guys will stick in combat almost guarunteed with their good leadership and decent save. Looking forward to hearing how things turn out.

 

rofl, nothing you said was wrong at all except your belief that I was wrong! Jokes.

Back on topic either list should do well, the second is my preferred style of play which relies on movement. I like it because not only does it mean that you control where combat occurs but also the enemy's line of sight. I wish i could draw a diagram for this but with m6 and both armies marching you should get the charge on the second turn, but the flank charge a turn later. How you have to play it will depend on who gets first turn.

 

My belief that you were wrong was based on the fact that I misread your post. Come to think of it, perhaps I shouldn't have been posting when it was so late, I probably wouldn't have missed the points cost on the Scar vet as well. Either way, you have solid arguments for your points and that makes for an excellent discussion.

Dumbledore hit it on the head as well. His list is 'weak' in the fact that he only has two units the same size of the same type (given, its hard to build a WoC army @ 500pts much differently, but I can think of a few ways). Because a greater portion of your troops are higher movement, you need to try and capitalize on that. I also think the deployement will be very important in giving you the advantage in the movement phase. I'd drop the unit of Kroxigors on the board last, making sure that you've got them coming up a flank that he can't protect (screen them w/ skinks if you want). As dumbledore mentioned, you should have a charge on turn 2 (or the following turn) with your flankers.

 

Bartok is 100% right in suggesting deploying the krox unit last. Skinks also help control movement through deployment. I also agree that discussion is the important thing in forums like this, as well as jokes and lots of painting pictures and pictured battle reports ^^

I only vaguely know the WoC codex but I know that this is far from the most scary thing he could throw at 500 points, just off the top of my head he could throw a beefed combat hero and 5 chaos knights, then fill the rest with small units of super cheap marauders and hounds (30 points for a unit and with m9 or something! Very weak though, even skinks should be able to deal with them).

If he continues to build his army to 1k in the same way he will be in REAL trouble. Two months ago I went into my local GW to see the really great guy there play his 1k empire army against someone with WoC. WoC brought only elite troops, with a beefed hero, 2-3 units of warriors and a unit of knights while empire was perfectly balanced with a cannon, a wizard a hero, a few knights, a couple of units with detatchments and a unit of pistol toting fast cav. WoC was outnumbered unit wise about 2or3-to-1. As he could not control combat the empire light cav lead his knights on a merry dance for 3 turns before they got flank charged while the warrior units could only fight one by one and each time they did fight they were dog-piled on by about 3 units from multiple sides. To top it off his hero got killed by a cannon on turn 2 (though that actually made little difference as the empire guy could have held him out of combat the way battle would have unfolded).

Anyway back on topic, please do tell us how it goes when you play him again. My best friend who started with me only has 4 models painted so far (we started on the same day and i have almost 1.5k painted now... go figure) and he's WoC so at this rate you guys should hear a report of our first 500pt skirmish in about... a year.

 

Someone please correct me if Im wrong, but in the current rules I believe a mage can only choose from 1 lore? Hence you don't see Slaans running around with all the 1st spell magic missiles? Unless he's got an item/ rule that says otherwise of course.....

 

That magic item is Book of Secrets (I mentioned it in my original post).

 

Ahhh, it makes sense now, sorry, I had no idea what it did

 

Warriors of Chaos has *so* many special abilities, rules and items that it is impossible to know what they all do. If there is a rule, Warriors of Chaos break it somewhere (which I guess is appropriate, being Chaos and all).

 

Play to your opponents weaknesses, not his strengths. In this i mean the following--
-If he has small units of slow moving but hard assesd infantry, take fast units that they cannot reach, or that you can flee as a charge reaction.
-Outnumber him.
-Counter his magic.
-Avoid block units that do the same as his guys, just not as well (in this case, saurus).

In other words..
-Change saurus for skink skirmishers and a salamander (in this case, normally razordons better).
-Get a skink priest. Think about dispel scrolls/ dispel buffing items (Mabye not necessary or too expensive, play with options)
-Never, ever, ever take ANY skink cohorts in ANY lizardmen EVER.
-Terradons. Fly behind him. Pew Pew him. Get free victory points.

OR - Take 2 skink priests. And hope on or both get Uranon's Thunderbolt. Then blow him up.


This should do it.

 

If suffering from points restrictions, why not? They're cheap, and would in this case basically do the same job as skirmishers and be just as effective, considering the lack of enemy shooty things.

 

I'm sorry thesecondman, but the more posts I read by you, the more I get confused. I have to respectfully disagree 100% with just about your entire post. Firstly, it seemingly contradicts itself.

How do you out number him without taking either of those units? I won't argue that there are ways but if you are suggesting to go with an avoidance army at the 500 point level, I don't honestly see how you'll get your victory points (baring some great rolls).

Sarus with HW/SH seem to do fine against warriors of chaos and usually will hold out for a round or two on their own. That is more than enough time to help them on the flanks (unless the rest of the army consists of skinks). It's true that they are most likely fighting a loosing battle, but they are hardy enough to tie a big unit of warriors of chaos up so that you can bring help.

How so? What kind of WoC player is going to feel comfortable charging a unit of razordons with his small elite infantry knowing that, despite their armor, there is a significant chance that he could loose a few troops? Of course, charging them and wiping them out from less than half their charge range seems like a great idea (preventing the S&S), since they're such an expensive unit for what they do. I would even hesitate to recommend salamanders considering the leadership of the army and the salamander's low strength shots.

While there is nothing wrong with this, the statement has 'powergamer' written all over it. Skink cohorts are a great unit to use for charge redirection and for shutting down an opponents movement phase (they're cheap, fast and expendeble). What do you use in your lists instead?

I can't help but laugh here. Do you honestly think that sinking over 40% of your points into 2x T2 magic users in the hopes that they'll roll the right spell will work? If you get caught in the open by even Marauder horsemen you'll be toasted! Not to mention that you have no real 'solid' unit to hide them in if you go with an avoidance army.

I am not trying to make it sound like I'm trying to start a flame war, but I am really struggling to see any logic in most of your suggestions. If you've had success with a list like the one that you're describing at this points level, I would love to see the list you use. I'd also like a general description of the opponents lists that you were successfull against. If you're just throwing ideas out there, with no experience or evidence to back them up, it would be very helpful to know this at the beginning of the post. From what it sounds like, you're trying to hand out bad advice which really isn't what I've seen Lustria Online be about.

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I agree with barotok, I was going to type up something like all that but was too tired (got swine flu). Basically I disagree with nearly everything that thesecondman typed, even when what he typed contradicted itself ^^