Characters Slann Mage-Priest w/ The Focused Rumination w/ Army Battle Standard w/ War Banner w/ Rod of Storms Core 20 Saurus Warriors w/ Spears w/ Banner+Music 20 Saurus Warriors w/ Spears w/ Banner+Music 10 Saurus Warriors w/ Spears 11 skinks w/ Kroxigor 15 skinks 13 skink skirmishers w/ blopipes Special 16 Temple Guard w/ F.C. w/ Jaguar Standard Stegadon 5 Chameleon skinks w/ Blowpipes 6 Cold one cavalry w/ Banner Rare Salamander Pack w/ x-tra handler Salamander Pack w/ x-tra handler All right, now I can surmise that the idea of having only one character might be boggling, but I personally have come to the conclusion that anything a hero can do, more guys can do better, at least most of the time. I mean, for the cost of a scar veteran on a cold one with some mundane gear, I can get 10 saurus to just hang out and beat face. Them showing up in the flank will certainly garner more CR then his 2.2222 kills on targets below WS 4. A skink priest with 2 scrolls and level 2 costs as much as 30 skinks.... and those 30 skinks can likely stop more spell pews just by jumping in the way. Once I broke the idea of having to fill up on heroes I just... didn't. The idea is MMU or Multiple Medium Units. Many of the units you see are seemingly incomplete, 10 saurus? No command? 15 skinks? Eh? The idea is to not put banners where you don't need them, since they give up max victory points, so it's often advantageous to just not have them for pawn tactics. Despite this, 10 saurus with spears will dead stop a unit of marauders, or those wood elf fast cav etc. 15 skinks is also a bit much for the average harassment force, just by 2 ranks outnumber they'll often come out on top. To really make the army work I'll need to be proficient at deployment hammer. Laying out units that make people's eyebrows raise, or even just straight bluffing. The problem I see in deployment hammer is that often people have either a whole unit.... or total trash and nothing in between, and they rely on heroes to make units more powerful, rather then just relying on back up to arrive. Lizardmen can often wait for backup longer then most people so we have a luxury there.
Well it is not all bad the idea you got here, but frankly it doesnt differ that much from a normal Lizardmen army either. Sure you have no scar vets but then again your two saurus warrior units are not immune to fear or terror. You have 3 solid blocks that are at movement 4 with only one real "high move" threat, thats the stegadon and by himself he will probably go down. What i mean here is that you do not have superior shooting, neither magic or close combat, what you have is a mediocre all-round list that really has no real edge to it. Strength in numbers is sometimes a good way to think about it but lets face it, you have 10 attacks on charge with a saurus unit, lets say you face elfs, you hit on 4+ so 2.5 hits you wound on 3+ so 1.8? hits, and he saves away one third of those. Sure thing here you have a second round of combat were you get 20 attacks insteed but he has chances to take advantage of a higher movement and might outflank or rear charge.. I know i know this is all "if this would happen, bla bla" but lets face it, a good opponent probably wont let you flank him that many times with that 10 saurus unit. Overall these kinds of lists has potential but i belive you need more hitting power to survive.
I really like the concept behind the list, and look forward to seeing the results. I've also found myself at times wondering why I need to add so many characters in there. If they're not bringing something unique to the table, which means magic, magic defense, or magic items, then there is really no point. Lots of units with a strong infantry line.. you are correct that deployment will be key with that list. You'll be able to mop up enemy light support with all those medium units... the tough part will be enemy fast-moving hammer units. Good to see someone trying something a bit different. I've had a nagging suspicion that characters in general tend to be overrated, and sort of a holdover from "herohammer".
I disagree completely with teknistmajjan. The saurus may be m4 but he has 3 m6 skink units and cold one riders and a stegadon for breaking. Personally I would consider dropping the unit of 10 saurus and replacing them with two units of rank and file skinks, just so that you have more chaff to position the enemy with. I do acknowledge that the 10 saurus will be a nice flanker so I suggest you try out the list as it is first. My only strong concern is the lack of war machine hunters and the difficulty you might have fighting nastier light cavalry such as those empire handgunner ones or dark riders. Tell us how it plays anyway.
I like the concept behind the list, it definitely has an "axe to mouth" type feel. Though since you have no Dispell scrolls and only 4 Dispell Dice, you might consider the Focus that gives the Slann and his unit MR3. Protect your investment and all that. Other than that, as long as you maximize your lore choice against the army you face and be sure to maximize your unit numbers by always trying to get that supporting flank charge you should be fine.
First of all, thanks for posting this list Donkey. I have to say that I've rarely seen a list like this posted for discussion here on the site. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that it has had as much positive acceptance as I've read to this point. I'll add my comments and thoughts along the same lines as the above posters. I'll start by saying that this type of philosphy is by no means new. It's definitely not typical of what we're used to seeing on the battlefield, this forum and in general philosphy. However, I've been a subscriber to this theory for a long time and believe that, when correctly constructed, a list such as this can do wonders because of its sheer weight in numbers. I'll say that I don't have a lot of experience with this type of list with the exception of at very low points value (200-1000) and while I'm sure the concept is still viable at 2000k+, I'd say it will probably be a little less noticable than at the lower values. I understand your concept of MMU, but a couple of things weaknesses that I see were already mentioned. I think that you'll struggle with warmachines a little. Perhaps rearranging the list to incorporate Terradons would be a good thought. I also think that you would greatly benefit from more Skink Skirmishers. They're slightly more expensive than their cohort brothers, but provide a more mobile fire support role while still being able to serve as a charge redirect if necessary. More specifically, the first unit that I would tweak would be the unit of 15 skinks. They're going to have a limited role (charge redirecters?) with their current configuration (w/ out Krox) and I feel that 10 is sufficient for this role. Secondly, I'd make an arguement against the chameleons with this army concept. They have always seemed very expensive for what you get and I don't see you being able to take warmachine crews with that unit alone (although I could be very wrong depending on the army). I like your special and rare choices and think that they'll be great for guarding your meaty flanks. You could even place your smaller unit of sarus in a position to protect one of them, if you want to stack a flank to break the enemy's line. My only other thought would be to potentially add more Skink Skirmishers. From personal experience, I've always been able to maximize the points spent bringing them. Overall, I'm anxious to hear how this list functions and performs. I agree that you'll have to be carefull with deployement and make sure that you're able to use all aspects of the game setup phase to your advantage. I also am a firm believer that lots of smaller troops (core) can do what a single character can do in many cases.
The list did rather well. My opponent was an empire player for both games this sunday. The first game, he ran a list with 15 inner circle knights led by a Templar Grand Master with laurels of victory and sword of power, he had one cannon, 7 pistoliers, and 2 big blocks of swordsmen with free company detatchments. Further, he ran some scout archers, and he ran 2 units of 6 flagellants as his sternguard. Deployment was key, our terrain involved a hill on the center of one side, and a forest and pond on either side of the center. there was also a long hedge beside the forest cutting off one side of the board. I had enough guys that i could put down a legitimate army on either side of the board and force him to deploy to counter it, or get flanked hard. The slann and a group of saurus took the middle to counter his gigantic knight pile. The scouting archers were devastating, they blasted a salamander, bothered some skinks, and generally took that far flank. The other side was dominated by sallies, skinks, etc. I found no great difficulty in holding the line with the temple guard, until a strong flank force of saurus could get there. Twice in the game my opponent lost, but I let him mulligan from point. A stegadon terrorized one of his blocks into a flanking pile of death. The game was largely won by the outflanking power of sheer numbers, 15 skinks took out the cannon, kroxigor went deep to take out the sternguard of flagellants. Oddly enough, a unit of 30 swordsmen charged the 10 saurus, and couldn't beat them 3 times. Stegadon got in range and tied up the other swordsmen block, he eventually conceded for reals when the saurus cav came from behind and said....who do we rear charge? The second game I told him to hate draft and he did. It was a bloody battle, and his cannons blew up a stegadon and nearly wiped out a block of 20 saurus. He buffed his detachments, and oddly enough, ran detachments of spearmen! These things helped hold his flanks a lot longer, but the same things ran true, there was just too much of it. In the end, I realize this plan works best for lizardmen because the Slann can do everything. be your general, be your BSB, be a caster, and he's largely immune to hero killing strategies. I think that I could only get away with the slann having no spell defence because I had enough guys to just take it to the face. Also, there were several turns I didn't feel the need to cast as much as I did. I think that making room for the diadem of power and a scroll or two would help me against armies with more serious magic phases. I could still keep the focused rumination, rather then going max D with the MR. Cheaper Lores like life could still be valid despite saving up two dice. I also found that a kroxigor is super helpful to a unit of serious skinks. Fear just helps too much. The saurus cav are also highly important, they usually never do a darn thing except walk around to the rear, but once they get there it's pretty much concession time. I agree that the pterodactyls might be helpful, and possibly even the upgrade of the stegadon to ancient status would make that happen. (because it frees a special choice) Further, I think that a razordon group would work out better then the salamanders, just because they always ended up pewing at harassment forces, either that, or I need to start putting the sallies into the center and retreating with them if things go bad.
Putting salamanders in the center of the army leads to many fun possibilities. last game with WoC they took two banners as well as killing a spawn, and decimating a unit of maruaders. they also make a great flanker unit. You would want to consider combining the unit into a unit of two sallies, which also opens up the room for your ancient if you want.
I have to say after I read your post, it matched up almost exactly with what I was thinking that this list would do. I'm not as surprised as I am excited. Congrats again on the wins. It sounds like having all those extra units on the board really helped as far as giving you choices in the deployement zone as to how to counter which units. A couple of things that you mentioned that really caught my attention was the comments about the versatility of the Slann. You're absolutely right in the fact that he can be/do everything (Gen, BSB, cast, etc). This gives LM an advantage in comparison to other lists who don't have this luxury and are forced into several different characters to fill this role. Although it's debatable about the total points cost, the overall concept holds true. I think this simple fact alone gives validity to lists like these despite potential contention of things like overall points cost. Also having the right balance of skinks with kroxigor support and skirmishers seems key as well here. Having a Krox or two present in the unit not only benefits the unit with the fear but also beefs out the unit giving you more numbers and filling four 20x20mm bases for rank bonuses and unit strength. All that on top of the extra attacks can make these units usefull for multiple things considering their speed. The most interesting thing that i read was your comments about the Razordon hunting packs. I was wondering about Razordons for a list like this and was surprised when you mentioned that you thought these would perform over the Salamanders on the flanks. I can definitely see where you're going with this when taking into consideration the army/list you were up against. I know that I struggle with Salamander placement when you weight the differences between sending them up the middle and retreating when things get 'too hot' (bad pun I know) versus trying to spew flames across multiple units from a flank. I think that despite the fact that the recent FAQ release has not been in their favor, Razordons really still have a roll to play in the LM lineup, albiet more limited than before. Perhaps they're a great accent to this list. Have you thought about dropping one Salamander in exchange for a Razor and seeing how that goes? This may give you the opportunity to guage its performance without sacrificing two rare choices for a potentially underperforming unit. Looking forward to hearing your comments.
Later tonight I'll redraw the list, but one of the problems is that this army is a "sweep the battle chest" army, that pretty much uses everything I have. (except more old version skinkz) I would like to add another kroxigor, or some razordons, or pterodactyls, but those are all metal, and all pricey. The kroxigor will likely be the next purchase I make just because it isn't completely ugly. I am planning on keeping the sallies, but lumping them into a single unit for two reasons. Twice in the game I was forced to charge into something feeble, detachment of halberdiers and a desperate flank to back up those 10 saurus (or what was left). Two attacks is just not enough to make those sallies beat this trash. It would also help me get vital combat rez by outnumbering people. The other reason is that though two sallies can individually cause more panic in the enemy, they are themselves vulnerable to BEING panicked, when one of their models dies or something. I really can't knock the 10 man saurus unit, the first game it was nearly MVP, and the second game it got ignored in favor of the larger saurus unit and eventually overran a cannon. (paying for itself and then some by virtue of claiming a quarter. The stegadon was MVP the second game because it moved next to some pistoliers and some archers, and they both failed leadership and ran off the board (the archers after failing to rally twice). The stegadon immediately got double cannoned to death. The point of the ancient is that if it's fighting useless trash, the blowpipes are pretty helpful at thumping them, and within 6" to be effective is just fine since that's also the terror radius. Against non-trash just charge them.
One of the largest problems i see is your slow speed. You have very few units that can move fast, and if you become march blocked you are not going anywhere at all. Consider taking the war drums of Xahutec on your slann. He will most likely be at the center of your battle line and that would allow the whole army to always be able to march.