I had an odd situation come up in my last game. I had a large unit of skinks with three krox in the second rank. They got flank charged by a small unit of chaos warriors. I lost the first round of combat, held and reformed. When I reformed I had one skink in the new front rank, a krox (since he couldn't leave combat) and four more skinks with the two remaining krox in the rank behind them. In the next round of combat my opponent declared attacks on my krox and killed him with two wounds left over (he only had one remaining from the first round.) The question was then what happens to the extra wounds? My position was that they were wasted since only one krox was in the front rank and elligable to be hit. My opponent argued that the "step up" rule meant that the wounds would go to the next krox. I offered a comprimise to let the wounds carry over the the skinks behind the fallen krox, since they were the ones "stepping up". We called a friend over and he sided with my opponent and I let it go (with a little grumbling). So which of us was right? I have not been able to find a rule of example that covers this particular case.
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8th Ed. Odd kroxigor situation
- Thread starter nyahuma
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Skink Priest
Arli
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In this case, I do not think you could reform at all. The rule in the lizardmen rulebook clearly states that they must go in the second rank. If you have enough skinks to make up the front rank, you are stuck. However, I would say also that the wounds carry over to the other Kroxigors as the attacks were made against them. Once that krox is removed from the front rank, any additional wounds must be directed at the skinks.
Razordon
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Wounds cannot transfer from krox to skinks or vice versa due to the attack allocation rules.
In a normal krox unit the hits would transfer to stepping up rear ranking krox.
In a skrox unit 2nd rank krox are ineligible targets and cannot be hit until there are insufficient skinks to fill the front rank.
There is a question about whether it is possible to legally reform a skrox unit to face a flanker if a krox is in contact however if it is possible you get left with 3 pools of targets in the unit (or more if characters in unit): eligible target krox in front rank, ineligible 2nd rank krox and skinks. Attack allocation rules mean that attacks have to be allocated to targets before rolling to hit and attacks can only be allocated to the eligible front rankers. Therefore hits/wounds cannot be transferred to 2nd rank krox unless they are forced into the eligible front rank attack allocation pool by the death of sufficient skinks.
In a normal krox unit the hits would transfer to stepping up rear ranking krox.
In a skrox unit 2nd rank krox are ineligible targets and cannot be hit until there are insufficient skinks to fill the front rank.
There is a question about whether it is possible to legally reform a skrox unit to face a flanker if a krox is in contact however if it is possible you get left with 3 pools of targets in the unit (or more if characters in unit): eligible target krox in front rank, ineligible 2nd rank krox and skinks. Attack allocation rules mean that attacks have to be allocated to targets before rolling to hit and attacks can only be allocated to the eligible front rankers. Therefore hits/wounds cannot be transferred to 2nd rank krox unless they are forced into the eligible front rank attack allocation pool by the death of sufficient skinks.
Yeah, that was pretty much my read (three different targets), although the folks over at war seer seemed sure that the wounds go to the other krox and that I was an idiot for even asking. I hadn't thought about the reform issue - I thought it was legal as long as the krox not in combat were placed in the second rank and as long as no models we taken out of combat - seems fuzzy rules-wise, but thaks for the replies.
Ripperdactyl
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With the KROX in center and 1 rank of skinks down each flank an 8 Skink wide frontage formation should prevent this from happening, at least until you start running out of Skinks.
Razordon
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Been thinking about it more...
It seems to me that the requirement that skinks occupy the front rank should be treated like characters having to occupy the front rank. When the unit reforms the requirement to keep the same number of rank and file models in contact will be satisfied by skink rank and file models instead of krox rank and file models. When this happens there is no krox in the front rank to cause the problem so it goes away...
...think this will fly on Warseer?
It seems to me that the requirement that skinks occupy the front rank should be treated like characters having to occupy the front rank. When the unit reforms the requirement to keep the same number of rank and file models in contact will be satisfied by skink rank and file models instead of krox rank and file models. When this happens there is no krox in the front rank to cause the problem so it goes away...
...think this will fly on Warseer?
Razordon
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What I was thinking is that the make way rule for characters on p100 should also apply to skinks in a skrox unit.
The circumstances in this example are a combination of unusual circumstances because the LM book were written for 7th edition and the amendments in the errata don't address the 8th edition reform rules.
The issue about casualties is dependent on how the reformis handled, if the krox isn't in the front rank (as the 7th ed LM rules expect) then the casualty issue is moot; only if the krox is forced to remain in the front rank does the overkill issue arise.
I thought there was something in the rules about it not mattering if different rank and file models remained in contact with the enemy as log as the number remained the same, but I can't find it so it may be a figment of my imagination.
In any case it is weak to argue that the krox is so special it has to forced into the front line away from the other krox but so similar that it has to be in the same attack allocation group as its ineligible target comrades.
Just about to pop over to Warseer to see how abuse my comment have generated...
The circumstances in this example are a combination of unusual circumstances because the LM book were written for 7th edition and the amendments in the errata don't address the 8th edition reform rules.
The issue about casualties is dependent on how the reformis handled, if the krox isn't in the front rank (as the 7th ed LM rules expect) then the casualty issue is moot; only if the krox is forced to remain in the front rank does the overkill issue arise.
I thought there was something in the rules about it not mattering if different rank and file models remained in contact with the enemy as log as the number remained the same, but I can't find it so it may be a figment of my imagination.
In any case it is weak to argue that the krox is so special it has to forced into the front line away from the other krox but so similar that it has to be in the same attack allocation group as its ineligible target comrades.
Just about to pop over to Warseer to see how abuse my comment have generated...
Ripperdactyl
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In a combat reform you can always bring more models into contact but once in combat you cant move models touching enemy models out of combat.
So think it could go either way.
1) you are bringing more models in (2 Skinks = 1 Krox).
or
2) the Krox is the model touching so can not be moved out of combat unit can not reform at all because Krox has to be in second rank. .
*Scratches head* hmmmmm?
So think it could go either way.
1) you are bringing more models in (2 Skinks = 1 Krox).
or
2) the Krox is the model touching so can not be moved out of combat unit can not reform at all because Krox has to be in second rank. .
*Scratches head* hmmmmm?
Skink
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while I understand P55 and the reforming rules, the reform is legal. And to be compliant with the LM special rules the Krox gets pulled back into the second rank.
This is under PG 11, On the rare occasion a conflict will arise between a basic rule and one printed in a Warhammer Armies book. When this occurs, the rule printed in the Warhammer Armies book takes precedence.
Or as I like to say it: big book is trumped by little book.
So therefore, if reforming in victory, the unit reforms to have the same or greater frontage. The Krox slips to the second rank putting skinks in front. Nothing in the reform rule says if your rules are different you cant reform. In defeat same thing just make the LD test.
BTW this also applies to the Slann in Temple Guard.
This is under PG 11, On the rare occasion a conflict will arise between a basic rule and one printed in a Warhammer Armies book. When this occurs, the rule printed in the Warhammer Armies book takes precedence.
Or as I like to say it: big book is trumped by little book.
So therefore, if reforming in victory, the unit reforms to have the same or greater frontage. The Krox slips to the second rank putting skinks in front. Nothing in the reform rule says if your rules are different you cant reform. In defeat same thing just make the LD test.
BTW this also applies to the Slann in Temple Guard.