Ok I think I have a list I really really like for a tournament comming up next weekend. Problem is, it's 10pts over! Slann Focused Rumination Becalming Cogitation Focus of Mystery Bane Head BSB 415 Scar Vetran Light Armor Shield Cold one Burning Blade 133 Skink Priest Level 2 Plaque of Tepok EOTG 405 Scar Vetran Light Armor Shield Great Weapon Jaguar Charm 124 16 Temple Guard, Standard 270 4 Terradons 120 5 Cold ones 175 2 Salamanders 150 18 Saurus, Spears, Stanadard. 228 10 Skirmish Skinks 70 10 Skirmish Skinks 70 10 Rank Skinks 50 10 Rank Skinks 50 2260pts Please help me find 10 more points! I cut every peice of non essential I could find, I fear I will be cutting bone if I trim much more... (perhapes take the standard away from the stubborn Temple guard?)
2 units of 10 cohorts. Why? Drop them both. I found you 90 points. Snark aside, you could find a better use for that 100 points. Why not field another unit of Skirmishers? That would still give you 20 points and a screening unit nearly as wide as both units of cohorts combined as well giving you the same number of poisoned shots at 50% longer range. In my opinion, Skink Cohorts are only really worth it for one reason: you intend to place Kroxigors in the unit. Skink Skirmishers handle everything else and in my opinion, better. March blocking, shooting, screening, etc.
Not sure I agree with EVERYTHING stegadeth said, but I will second him on the vast majority of it. You'll probably prefer skirmishers in most cases, but ranked skinks have a very different roll from skirmishers, IMHO. Skirmishers are for screening and attacking those hard to reach places of your opponent's army. Ranked skinks are strictly a support unit (except against goblins) and are only there to give saurus the advantage of (hopefully) numbers, a flank charge, and rank denial. Take from that what you will, but if you want to field ranked skinks, then combine the two units you currently have and cut a couple skinks for the 10pts you're looking for. Ranked skinks can tip a combat to your advantage, but you need more than ten in the unit to do it, hence the larger unit size. @blackfrog: Skirmishers CAN redirect, it's just a lot trickier. By the rules you bring a charger into contact with the nearest skirmisher (p.67 "charging against skirmishers," BRB). Even ignoring that, it's not terribly hard to position skirmishers so that the unit still has to wheel in order to hit any of them.
Redirection basically died this edition, remember? A unit can only charge a new unit that is directly in its path. Unless you are using a new definition of Charge Redirection?
Yes we mean diffrent things. Redirection (my meaning) is angling a unit so that an enemy charging it will expose it's flanks to a counter charge from a different friendly unit. Here is how I use them March rank skinks up to an enemy cav or block unit then wheel about 30 degrees. The enemy can either charge the 50pt skinks and expose a flank to something or wait to try to shoot my skinks out of existance (delaying them one turn or more). I don't think this really can be done with skirmish troops. If you dont have the skirmish unit right in front the enemy they can simply ignore the skirmishers and move/charge strait ahead. If the skirmish unit is actually blocking the enemy unit from the front they can charge strait and the skirmishers have to alighn to them allowing for a nasty over charge into units you really care about. Not to mention ranked speed bumps are almost 50% cheaper than skirmish skinks. I find speed bumps like these vital when using a shooty/magic army. Anything that buys you an extra turn at range is golden. (Oh and not worries about snark I really enjoy a good conversation about tactics!)
Here is what I think will work. I decided to kill a Salamander, get and echanted shield on my Cold one Scar vet and Cupped hands on my Slann. Slann Focused Rumination Becalming Cogitation Focus of Mystery Bane Head Cupped Hands of the Old Ones BSB Scar Vetran Light Armor Enchanted Shield Burning Blade Cold one Skink Priest Level 2 Plaque of Tepok EOTG Scar Vetran Light Armor Shield Great Weapon Jaguar Charm 16 Temple Guard, Standard 4 Terradons 5 Cold ones 1 Salamander, Extra Handler 18 Saurus, Spears, Stanadard. 10 Skirmish Skinks 10 Skirmish Skinks 10 Rank Skinks 10 Rank Skinks 2247pts
I don't see what prevent an enemy from completely ignoring the ranked skinks as you suggest they might ignore the Skirmishers. Also, based on what you are saying Skirmishers would actually be better at what you are describing seeing as they have twice the frontage of a ranked unit of skinks. 10 Skink Skirmishers can line up thusly: X X X X X X X X X X 10 Skink Cohorts can line up thusly: XXXXX XXXXX If you are worried about where a unit might hit them, angle the Skirmishers! you can position them however you want and out of a frontal charge. ---------------------------------CCCCC X--------------------------------CCCCC ---X--X ---------X X ---------X X X -----------------X X Set up this way that Cavalry unit still has to wheel to get into base contact with your skinks. They are still being march blocked by the skinks. They can still be flanked by the skinks if they choose to ignore them and charge something else. If they do charge the skinks they get pin-cushioned with a stand and shoot first. Both your way and my way one is dependent on a Cavalry unit going ahead and deciding it is worth their time to get into a fight with a unit that really should be ignored. I find my opponents have a harder time ignoring 20 poisoned shots from 12 inches versus 5 poisoned javelins from 8 inches. Really, I am having a hard time even understanding why you would think the cohorts could be better as what is essentially bait. Perhaps I am still not fully understanding how you use them? Are you saying because they are in front of the Cavalry unit but because most of the Cavalry unit is on the flank they have to charge the flank thereby exposing their own? That's what I get out of it. Truth is, why would a cavalry unit even bother with a fifty point unit of Skinks that, at best is an annoyance? A couple of small wheels and they are bypassed, same as a unit of ten skirmishers, except those skirmishers can do much more damage making them harder to be ignored. To use your terminology, think of the skinks as bigger, badder speed bumps with some teeth! Anyhow, that's how I see it.
Some other way to lose some points. Take 3 Terradons instead of 4. Take 1-2 less saurus if your scar vets are going in the unit. A note on the skink skirmishers, redirecting, march blocking and stand and shooting. you need to be within 12' for blowpipes to shoot. you need to have 1 model within 8' to march block. you need to have the first model charged greater than 7-8'(their movement value) away from the chargers else you cant shoot as you are too close. Do all skirmishers have to hold and not shoot if some are found to be within half the charge range? or can the skirmishers greater than half the charge range still shoot?
Man i wish I could draw angles to show you what I mean. Look at this formation BBBBBB BBBBBB BBBBBB BBBBBB B = Bad Guys x ...x ....x .....x ............x x= angled rank skinks CCCCC C= Cold one cav This is a really bad vsual. But it might get the idea across. The bad guys cant go forward and cant charge teh cold ones. they have to stand still or charge the rank skinks. If they charge the rank skinks they will expose thier flank to the Cold ones. (the cold ones would be slightly angled and the rank skinks not so radically angled. this is a bad representation) Skirmish skinks cant pull this off. BBBBB BBBBB BBBBB BBBBB B=Bad Guys .. s .... s ... s ..... s .. s s= Skirmish Skinks CCCCCCC In this case the block strait charges the skinks and over charges into the Cold ones. I think I can see how skirmish skinks can redirect but it's alot harder than with ranked skinks and much more expensive. An enemy may be forced to bring his unit in contact with the nearest enemy skirmisher on a charge but he only needs to bring his closest model into contact and can usually do so in a way that the angle of the block is barely deflected most of the time. Thsi is a conversation tha really needs a small graphics program to communicate.
Yeah, I get what you're saying. You get what I am saying. Where we are disagreeing is that the opponent's unit has to charge the Skink Cohorts. What stops them from wheeling around them? Especially if they get a movement spell or a magic item that simply ignores march blocking? Here's how I see it: 20 more points gets you twice as wide a frontage, way more shots, better range and more versatility. You are basically using 50 points that likely won't last past a second round of close combat just to set up a for flank charge, a charge which would come during the second round of close combat based on how you are wording things. Now, I get disposable units, but I expect more from mine, like say (statistically) 3 auto-wounds per shooting phase and a stand and shoot reaction if they do get charged.
If I understand your diagram correctly, blackfrog, you somehow expect these skinks to hold. I don't see it working like that at all. I think the more workable situation is this. ....................... BBBBBB ....................... BBBBBB ....................... BBBBBB ....................... BBBBBB B = Bad Guys ......................x .........................x ...........................x ..............................x ..................................x x= angled rank skinks ....................... CCCCC C= Cold one cav SSSSSS S=smashy unit The bad guys would dearly love to charge the cold one cavalry, but the skinks are in the way (or the extra movement they now have to expend going around said skinks puts them out of charge range). Taking a page from the rats (gasp!) we have put a unit that we EXPECT to get smashed between the enemy and something expensive (like COC), and arranged units such that if they charge the skinks, they're faced with one of three outcomes, none of which are good for the bad guys. opt 1) the skinks hold against all odds and the COC charges the flank (or the front). opt 2) the skinks die horribly or even get away and the unit chooses NOT to pursue. The COC then charges the flank (or the front). opt 3) the skinks die horribly or even get away and the unit DOES pursue. They get charged by the smashy unit (whatever that may be); and if the COC are angled sufficiently, they charge the unit in the flank, or possibly the rear. Hopefully, the OP is taking notes on our little tangent .
Yea this should totally be in the tactics section at this point. Spacelizard you are slightly misinterpreting my poor graphic. If the Cold ones are a bit more back and angled they can catch for a flank or rear charge into the enemy block even with an average 5-9 inch overrun after the rank skinks are all dead. I do however see the point of taking more skirmish skinks. Wish we could get a game in to show each other the usefulness of our positions. I have a tournament coming up sat feb 13. I plan to take a lot of pics. I will post a link to my battle reports on this site.
I was wondering about that... The reason my scenario uses two hammer units instead of one is that if the COC are angled enough for a flank or rear charge on a unit that DID pursue/overrun, then the COC are probably angled too far for the unit (i.e. bad guys) to be inside the COC's charge arc if said unit DIDN'T pursue/overrun. My geometry may be off though.