*POSSIBLE SPOILERS* The Wheel of Time

Hey y'all!

This thread is about the book series (and related media like the upcoming TV show) "The Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan.

It will most likely be impossible to not spoil the story while talking about it, so if you care about spoilers and have not read the books (the TV show might be very close to the books or not) you should probably not read this.
I still encourage everyone to be as spoiler-free as possible, especially when the show starts and people are watching the episodes. You never know how far someone is.


Good sources:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time

https://dragonmount.com/

https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/A_beginning

 

Ok, so here is the first teaser for the TV adaptation.
I'll comment on it later.

 

I think most people have.

Three I know that seem to get more good than bad reviews are True Grit, Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings.
Most Stephen King movies are laughably bad, although there are a few decent ones, the Dan Brown and Tom Clancy ones are... mediocre at best.

The ones that are reportedly pretty good are - interestingly - quite often not _that_ close to the book. Examples are The Shining, Blade Runner and No Country for Old Men.

 

I might also re-read the books, or maybe I'll try listening to them for a change. Not sure yet.

As for the casting:
Yeah, Perrin is blonde in the books IIRC but I don't care much about hair colors and such as long as the most important points of the character come across.
For example Moiraine is short in the books, and it comes up quite often, but from what I have seen I think that Rosamund Pike (who is 1,75 tall so not short by any means) is still a good pick.

That's one of the things I look for. Aes Sedai are famous for their smooth, ageless faces. You can do a lot with makeup but it helps if the actress already has the right shape.

As for other characters:
The show will have to change parts of the story, some will change quite drastically even. So they will change places and characters, maybe roll some of the over 2000 named characters of the books into one (I'll talk about places later). There will be some things that go out of the window, and I think we can see it in the trailer already. Siuan Sanche (Sophie Okonedo) looks like a Sea Folk woman with her dark skin and the tattoos they added (she also nails the ageless look btw.)
My (and also others' it seems) guess is that they will drop parts of the Sea Folk story and characters and/or conflate them, so Siuan might be one of the girls the Sea Folk send to the White Tower instead of a fisherman's daughter from Tear. As long as she curses wildly that will probably be fine.

When they cast Daniel Hanney for Lan I was a bit torn as well. I had expected someone... beefier. He looks too thin on most pictures. But he is tall (1,88m) which he needs to be as Lan has to tower above both Moiraine and Nyneave, and when I saw him in costume I instantly recognized him. His Asian look is OK I think, quite some northerners (even if the Saldeans have it most prominently) are described in that way, and it fits the Samurai-ish thing they are known for as well.
Artwork from the books seems to agree.

Randland is very racially/culturally diverse in the books, actually somewhat unrealistically so because it is a rather small continent. If there is one fantasy world where an extremely mixed cast fits it is here.

Most of the Emondsfielders are perhaps a tad on the darker side concerning their skin tones (I always imagined them more "Latino"-looking than black), except Mat who might be too white and Rand who is perfect. In his case it is important that he is tall, has a different skin tone, and red hair. But it isn't really a plot point for any of the others so I don't care.

The only one I've seen that I might need to get used to is Padan Fain. I always pictured him as basically looking like Grima Wormtongue from LotR (Brad Dourif). White, almost sickly looking, hook nosed. But I guess they wanted to avoid the 1930s "Jewish peddler" cliché, especially because of what he stands for.
And as long as he is skinny and creepy we will probably be fine, and that actor looks like absolute nightmare fuel on some pictures (sorry Johann Myers, take it as a compliment please, because it is!) And completely harmless on others, like Fain should.


And then of course concerning looks of people:
I started reading the books when I was 14 or so, and I live in Germany so it is no surprise that I imagined most of them white, even the ones that are described in the books as having "a dark face" (Eamon Valda). Imagination is shaped by experience, and the darkest looking people I knew were Turkish or Spanish, most of those would probably count as white in the US.

I'll continue with more thoughts later.

 

About places (and related characters, we are talking about WoT after all, where _everything_ is about characters, loads of them):

This is pure speculation but there are hints that make me think they might leave out Caemlyn for now. There is no Elaine, no Tallanvor, and no Morgase in the cast as far as we know, and the same goes for Gawyn.
Who knows, we might see Logain brought to Tar Valon instead of Caemlyn, have Moiraine and the boys go there as well, and meet Elaine and her family in season 2.
I'd be sad about the garden scene and the following scene in the throne room missing, even though I admit that they are a bit cheesy. I like them.

And similar things could happen to other places and people. I think the show could cut most of the Shaido stuff and most people wouldn't really miss it. At least after Dumai's Wells. Even in the books those seem to drag on and on.
Same goes for the Matt and Tuon (the Light bless her) arc, and part of the Aiel, the Kin, Cairhien, and Sea Folk arcs.
I love the books but there are SO many things in there that would make a TV show boring or at least not add a lot.
They might even change the Aes Sedai protocol a bit and conflate Novices and Accepted so they can make the White Tower chapters a bit shorter.
Another candidate is Berelain and all the politics stuff in Tear (and was it Illian? It has been some time) that drags on a bit.

Sure, it might rub the book fans the wrong way in some places, but I think it might be necessary.
Those books are LONG.

I also kinda expect to have Mat's "Dagger phase" last a lot shorter, and the same goes for everything having to do with Faile and Perrin as well as the Circus, Bayle Domon, the Tower shism and the Seanchean.
Also: I kinda expect them to leave out most of the interaction between the Forsaken (their POV chapters) and keep them more of a mystery.
And perhaps they will leave out Shaidar Haran OR perhaps let him appear earlier to... wait for it... give the Fades a face.

To put this into perspective:
The Lord of the Rings has under 400,000 words IIRC and it was made into ~12h of movies while still omitting several chapters. I might misremember but IIRC WoT has over 4.3 million words in it. They cannot make that show run 14 seasons. Actors age and so on. Eight seasons is probably the maximum, so they will have to leave out close to half of what is in the books.
That fits to what they have told us about the first season's content: it will be book one plus a few things out of books two and three.

Side note: I hope they cut out a bit of the spanking at least, I always found its extent a bit weird.

What I look forward to: If someone says that there are too many convenient coincidences that are unrealistic: Shrug and just say "Ta'veren".

 

And from a maybe slightly more personal point of view;

I am concerned. There were not nearly enough Shadowspawn in the teaser. Even though everyone knows that they are the greatest creation ever! This age and their so-called Aes Sedai are a disappointment.

 

Ok this might become a thread in which I ramble on mainly to myself, but I have to get a few things out of my system I guess.

About the teaser trailer #1:
More knowledgeable people than me have done their analysis videos and stuff about it, but here are my thoughts:

The first scene immediately made me laugh. Throwing people into water is a well-known thing in the books (such as when Lan once threw Moiraine into a pond)
And that is so typical for Nynaeve. I don't remember her doing it to Egwene in the books, but we know that both Wilders and Aes Sedai use sometimes... creative ways to get women to channel. The scene is ironic since Nynaeve herself has some problems with that in the books. I wonder if the show will do that similarly, or if perhaps Egwene is the one with the problems?
Her saying "Be Strong" reminds me a bit of the words spoken during the Accepted test. "Be steadfast" (IIRC). Perhaps foreshadowing.

Anyway. The Two Rivers and Winespring Inn look nice.

I am not sure who the crying man is. He holds a serpent ring it seems (although those look different. Less a simple ring like in the books but they seem to have gems that show the Ajah color?) so I agree with others that he might be a Warder who lost his Aes Sedai. That also explains his seemingly reckless fighting style.

I am pretty sure that Egwene coming out of that pool is the Novice/Accepted ritual, with the Ajay colors on the water.

Tar Valon looks awesome IMO. I see people critisize the White Tower, but from the descriptions in the books it looks pretty accurate apart from the fact that it isn't smooth enough. Ogier buildings usually look seamless.
The rest of the city looks pretty similar to what we know from the books (albeit a tad smaller). I might even have spotted the Grove in one of the shots but I might be wrong.

The Hall looks good, Leane (here and in a later shot) looks grumpy and has her staff, as she should.

I've already commented on Siuan, overall I don't mind her I guess, if the behaviour fits.

A Green sister heals Moiraine, possibly Alanna?

We see strands of the One Power in Emondsfield. Not sure what happens there.

Red sisters!

Rand shoots a bow but he has a slightly weird drawing technique and the bow looks a bit short and thin for a Two Rivers Longbow.

Matt, possibly in Shadar Logoth, with the Dagger.

Mashadar. This is definitely Shadar Logoth.

Is that... Hopper?

I am not sure what Egwene and Rand are doing there, but that might cause some braids getting tugged and/or ears getting boxed. Might be in the bath in Shienar? Anyway, they seem a bit closer than in the books, possibly because the characters are also older in the show.

Next we see Tam and what I think is a burial, probably for Aes Sedai killed by Logain.

The Hall again, and then Lan, Trollocs, Logain, Nynaeve in a misty forest, more Aes Sedai and some action with Aes Sedai and Warders.
Also horses! Namely Aldieb, Mandarb, and a few more of which one might be the mighty Bela.

The stone thing on the hill is a Waygate I think. And GAH Rand carries a bow (strung it seems! Not good) on his back... and it is too short.

Last we see a Myrddraal, and Moiraine channeling Saidar.
I wonder if we will see One Power wielders without visible strands (POV of someone who cannot feel the Source), or strands that are different because of the different elements.

I already see people complaining that it looks a bit like in Avatar: The Last Airbender but in defense of the producers here: It looks cool and Robert Jordan's descriptions of how using the One Power works/looks like predate ATLA by 15 years.
It deviates from the books a bit though. IIRC most Aes Sedai don't do exaggerated movements while channeling the Power. That goes so far that non-channelers don't even notice that they are doing something, they might just notice that the Aes Sedai look focused or straining.
But yeah, style points. Perhaps they will use the motionless channeling to give an extra cool impression when they show the really strong wielders such as the Forsaken, Cadsuane or Damane.

 

In the meantime here are even more thoughts about the TV show trailer, this time about... faces!
Aes Sedai faces to be specific.

I slightly touched on the topic before when I talked about Moiraine and Siuan, but let's delve a bit deeper into it, shall we?

The showrunner (Rafe Judkins) already said in an Q&A some time ago that they will have to tune down the ageless face thing a bit for the show, both to not creep out people and to keep the amount of heavy makeup and/or CGI (both expensive) for all the Aes Sedai faces low.

I think that's the right decision, but I like that they at least tried. They picked a lot of "smooth but not young" actresses for the sisters.
As far as I am concerned they look fine for the show's purposes.

But... how strong is the ageless face look in the books, and how would it look if the above constraints were not a problem?

We know that people who are not used to Aes Sedai don't think they look particularly weird (IIRC one of the Emondsfielders just thinks Moiraine looks young), but different enough that people who know Aes Sedai (other Aes Sedai, Warders, some darkfriends, Kinswomen, Wise ones, Whitecloaks and a few others) do recognize them and won't just think that they look young.

That leads to them wearing cloaks to cover their faces, or even using younger sisters or Accepted (who don't have the look yet) for secret operations. It is that obvious seemingly.

So, looking at real persons I guess you could illustrate it with women who use very time-consuming and/or expensive methods to keep their faces very smooth, so that they could easily pass as 20 years younger than they are. Sometimes they might even look a bit "artificial".

Examples:

Madonna is 63 and on a lot of pictures she could pass as a mid-40s woman.

Cher is... well. Made of plastic basically.
She is an example where you can really not tell, she has been looking pretty much the same for the last 30 years.

Less extreme examples are Bette Midler and Dolly Parton who are both 75 years old (like Cher) but could well be in their 50s, but they look unnatural enough that people realize that something isn't quite normal there.

More natural again are Halle Berry, Jennifer Aniston, Jennifer Lopez, Gwen Stefani, Cindy Crawford, Ming-Na Wen or Sandra Bullock (all over 50, kinda look like in their 30s). I know women in their mid-30s who definitely look older than any of those.

So what do you think?
Do Aes Sedai look "lifted"? I think that the "slightly unnatural" Dolly Parton / Cher style probably is close. That considered... I think I prefer the more normal look for the TV show.

 

I read the whole series twice, once in German and once in English.
And like you I read my favourite scenes several times more.

I decided to get the first audio book (in German because I want my wife to listen to it as well) and give it a try. 2 hours in, and it is nice so far.

I fear the show will be hard to watch for you then, which is kinda sad.
I am 100% sure that there will be quite some major changes. They have to cut roughly 50% of the books and make the rest fit together, most likely in some other shape.

I am still neutral about it, I see it as a re-telling of the same story, just not the same version.
Like different versions of fairytales. I always make sure to remember that nothing they do with the show can take away the books I love, only add to them.
If you don't like theirs, just stick to yours.

More thoughts later. Right now I am listening to the boys meeting Moiraine for the first time.

 

Yeah, he's great.
I saw an short audition tape of his, brilliant.

In other news I've seen a "leak" in which two more actresses are shown that have been cast, one of them rumored to be Elayne in the show.
I know nothing about her other than what I have seen in some video, but from what I've seen there it looks like she could definitely fit the role.

But yeah, acting is important there. I can take it if people look differently, but if they act very differently they just become another character.
That's what I like about the LotR movies, the characters mostly were not only visually there, but also in the little mannerisms and subtle character traits.

But back to WoT:
One thing the audio book has achieved already is that it slowed down the experience. Sounds weird but I am a very quick reader and I sometimes tend to not let things sink in properly. If I want to concentrate on a scene I read it three or four times instead once slowly. The man reading the audio book is sometimes critisized for having a rather neutral voice. We will see how I like him reading action scenes, or large dialoges with mutliple characters, but for the descriptive parts he is perfect so far. A tad too slow for me so it let the narration run on 1.1 speed (I'll also try 1.2 but that might be too fast) but that's already much slower than I read so it helps me focus differently.

One great thing that makes re-reads of WoT particularly interesting, apart from the enormous amount of foreshadowing, is hearing Aes Sedai talk. My wife doesn't notice and I don’t want to tell her, but it is brilliant how Moiraine, right in her first scene, manipulates the boys while at the same time absolutely telling them the truth. How they misinterpret her Aes Sedai way of talking as a noble heritage thing (well, it partly is. Moiraine is a noble after all).

My wife loves the village atmosphere in Emondsfield. I once again realized how similar it is to the beginning of the LotR.
She doesn't understand why I make happy noises when Bela is mentioned but that's OK, she will understand eventually.

The prologue with Lews Therin left her a bit puzzled though. I had to remind myself that for a new reader it _is_ quite confusing. What really happens there (such as Ishamael's words about the 100 companions rampaging) is supposed to be mysterious for the reader.

More thoughts later.

 

The scale of the audiobook is a bit daunting for my wife (and even for me I admit).
In German WoT consists of 37 soft cover books, as they split every English book into two or three books, Lord of Chaos and A Crown of Swords were even split into four books each.
AFAIK there are three reasons for that:
1. Money. You sell three or four books for 10€ instead of one for 20€
2. Translation time. You can already print half of the German book so people don't have to wait as long for the story to continue.
3. Size. German translations are usually 25-30% longer than the English originals (we have many long words I guess). The full books are massive unless you make the text very small.

The German audio book of book 1 (so only the first half of The Eye of the World) is over 16 hours already. The whole series is over 300 hours, that's quite a lot.

I wonder whether books 6-9 will be as slow to pass as the last two times, especially as an audio book.
The thing is: I really like a lot of what is in them, but at the same time I know that everything progresses VERY slowly at times and a lot of it isn't a lot of fun.
Not sure if I will get my wife through it. So for now my goal is to get my wife through The Eye of the World and maybe at least parts of The Great Hunt, just to get into the setting and the story.

There is a shortened audio version (7 hours for the first book) but it has mixed reviews and I'd rather have the full one so I can switch between reading and listening as I wish and my wife can do the same.

If we get really stuck at some point then I will present my wife with my own cut of the story, skipping over some chapters and just telling her about the most important stuff in them, and then only listen to/read the great scenes.

 

Update:
Almost halfway through book 1 of the audio book (the guys are just leaving Aridhol). My wife likes it so far.

Concerning the TV show:
It seems that Mat has been recast for season 2. We don't know why yet (could be anything really, people have been recast for many different reasons). I hope it doesn't impact the show too much.