8th Ed. Predatory Fighter & Re-roll To Hit Special Rules

[hardyworld]

So how does the Predatory Fighter rule work with Re-roll To Hit Special Rules?

Rules like Hatred and spells like Harmonic Convergence allow a unit to re-roll (all or some) failed To Hit rolls during close combat; how should Predatory Fighter attacks be applied?

1) Roll the initial attacks, determine how many extra attacks are gained and roll those additional attacks. Then re-roll the appropriate To Hit rolls for both base and additional attacks.

Example: I have only have 6 Saurus Warriors in a front rank with Hatred (Skaven) against a skaven unit, and all my models are in base-to-base contact with the skaven unit. I roll 12 attacks and gain the median results (6 misses, 6 hits, two of which are a '6'). I roll 2 additional attacks (1 miss, 1 hit). I now re-roll all 7 dice to determine hits all additional hits (4 misses, 3 hit). 10 total hits.

2) Roll the initial attacks, re-roll appropriate To Hit rolls for base attacks (additional attacks gained by Predatory Fighter will apply). Then roll the additional attack rolls, re-roll appropriate To Hit rolls on the additional attacks.

Example: I have only have 6 Saurus Warriors in a front rank with Hatred (Skaven) against a skaven unit, and all my models are in base-to-base contact with the skaven unit. I roll 12 attacks and gain the median results (6 hit, 6 misses, two of which are a '6'). I re-roll the 6 misses to determine additional hits from base attacks and gain the median results (3 misses, 3 hits, one of which is a '6'). I have now gained 3 additional attacks and roll them (2 misses, 1 hit). I now re-roll 2 dice to determine additional hits from additional attacks (1 miss, 1 hit). 11 total hits.


I tried to use median outcomes to show that there is approximately a 10% difference in total number of hits depending on how you use the rerolls in combat. More extreme cases of rolling can easily occur in the Lizardman general's favor.

Which procedure is correct?

I am trying to leave the "Predatory Fighter & Supporting Attacks" debate out of this thread.

 

[sirkently]

I would say number 2 is correct. The extra attacks from PF are still attacks, and benefit from any other special rules you have.

 

[hardyworld]

The extra attacks are benefiting from the special rules in BOTH cases. The PF additional attacks are rerolling misses in both examples, ONLY the order of determining how many additional attacks vs. re-rolling misses is applied in the 2 cases.

Both cases are according to the rules, but have different outcomes.

 

[Dyvim Tvar]

I believe you have to do it the second way:

1) Roll your initial attacks

2) Re-roll misses

3) Roll PF attacks that resulted from steps 1 or 2

4) Re-roll those misses

The first way you describe would have you rolling some PF attacks at the same time as re-rolls from initial attacks. This would make it impossible to determine (unless you use different colored dice) which of those rolls are eligible to generate additional attacks from the PF rule. That just doesn't make sense.

 

[olderplayer]

Agreed with 2. The precendent is poison, where you get poison on the re-rolls to hit as well. The rule as written says you get one exra attack for each 6 rolled to hit for the initial attacks. It is not limited to the first roll to hit, so would apply to the re-rolls to hit, just as poison does.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Re-rolls to hit are on all attacks.
The initial attack pool re-rolls to hit and can produce PF attacks.
The PF attacks re-roll to hit, but do not generate additional PF attacks.

To fulfill both rules, you have to track both pools of attacks on their own, and not re-roll any single die more than once.

You're options for process would be:
roll Attacks re-roll misses, generate PF, re-roll PF attacks.
OR
Roll attacks.
Generate PF.
Re-roll all misses.
Generate addition PF from the re-roll of the 1st pool.
Roll additional PF attacks, and re-roll those misses.

Either way, you'll get the same outcome.
Each 6 from the initial pool generate an extra attack.
Each attack, was re-rolled no more than once.



This is similar to Red Fury and ASF re-rolls. The additional attacks from Red Fury still get re-rolls to hit, because they are new attacks. Each attack is re-rolled only once.

 

[hardyworld]

I concur with all of you guys.

I also think it's important to point out that players should remember to take advantage of these rules to maximize the number of additional attacks from Predatory Fighter. Not only is it beneficial to your lizardmen army, but it's how these rules probably should be played in conjunction with each other.